serial numbers, ids, etc on artillery luger

i just got two artillery lugers, which both seem

to be dwm original issues with matching serial

numbers/number styles and no proof marks, but i

would like to make sure of them. i was hoping

to find serial number info and identification

info here, but i don't seem to see what i was

looking for.


there seem to be plenty of info on proof marks

and logos, but no info on what the id is if there

are no proof marks or logos. there seems to be

nothing on serial numbers, which i had hoped

would date these better, and though the letter

suffixs are shown, there is no explanation of

what they mean.


so, here is the info i have; if you have any

questions, or can help with the id, please

email me (it's too hard to find responses

on bbs).


1. dwm marked, 1914? style, 1918 date. matching serial

numbers/number styles on all parts, including

grips, stock, and holster. no proof marks on

anything that i can see.


serial # 2172c, 9mm (i think, but there does not

seem to be any easy way to tell), 8 inch barrel,


clean walnut grips with sharp checkering.


brown leather holster (this seems to be somewhat damaged-

the holster flap strap was partially torn, and repaired

with what looks like kidskin, which is also starting to

tear.).


stock (walnut?) in good shape on side next to holster,

with some bruises on outer side.


stock leather is brown, with some damage- some leather

was carved out of the strap attached to the fore-end,

and there seems to be a missing strap on the fore-end

cap (it looks like there is supposed to be a strap

there, that the longer strap slides through, to prevent

the cap from falling off). there are two screws on the

end of that cap, which look like they've had their heads

snipped off.


the stock has some minor pitting on the yoke? (the metal

part on the stock that attaches to the gun).


the cleaning rod is there (with some rust), but not the

takedown tool.


gun has 95-97% blue, with wear at chamber, some

minor browning on barrel, and some wear at butt.

parts show 95% straw color with some light spotting.

fine bore. some of the leather-to-brass fittings have

what look likes the usual green goo from that

interaction.


2. dwm marked, 1914? style, 1918 date. matching serial

numbers/number styles on all parts, but no numbers on

magazine. no proof marks on anything that i can see.


serial # 5334k, 9mm (i think, but there does not

seem to be any easy way to tell), 8 inch barrel,


40-50% blue, some light spotting on fore and back straps.

replacement grips (i do not know if these are

contemporary or modern), fine bore.

have not picked this one up yet, so cannot give info

on straw, etc. no accesories.


also, had some questions-


how do i determine caliber?


where is the best place to buy modern replica

stocks, holsters, and cleaning rods?


are original takedown tools available?


i've seen a few snail drums and drum loaders for sale,

but the prices are high. does anyone make working

replicas (hopefully pre-ban)?


i've read that if i decide to shoot these (just to

test them), i should not use just any modern 9mm para

hardball, but one designed to produce a lower chamber

pressure. is this the case, and what should i look

for? (ditto for my broomhandle mauser red 9)


thanks,


m ades

[Dok]

You raise an interesting point, we don't have any serial number info on this sight. Hey guys, what about it? All you serial number gurus, while you are answering the good lady's questions, how about considering contributing some of that serial number info to your forum. Send Ol' Dok some info I can put up!


Dok (Webmaster)

[Marvin]

Dok,


The best serial number information is listed in Jan Still's books, "Imperial Lugers", "Weimar Lugers", and "Third Reich Lugers". I had attempted to be able to copy these for the Forum, but I was not able to get rights from Jan to do this due to his copywrite agreement.


Many of us have these books and we would be glad to give the inoformation on individuyal firearms. We need the serial number and letter prefix (if applicable), the chamber date, and the toggle stamp.


Marvin

[Johnny Peppers]

The second pistol appears to be out of the suffix range for a 1918 LP08.

[John Sabato]

Please take time to post a profile and tell us a little about yourself and your interest in Luger pistols. The link "edit your profile" is at the top of the main discussion page, and doing so locks your ID so no one can post using your name. Read a few of the posted profiles to see what I mean using the "view user profiles" link in the same place. Reveal only information that your are comfortable doing so in a public forum...


Come back and visit often... There is much to learn here about Lugers.


-John

Dok & Marianne, The Artillery lugers were mixed in with the normal 4" PO8 production and don't have a range of their own. So the suffix ranges that Marianne reported sound OK to me. What is pluzzling to me is the lack of proofing on her 1918.

[Johnny Peppers]

Production on the 1918 4" guns did indeed go into the s suffix block, but production of the LP08 was thought to have ceased early on in 1918. Maybe this is proof that they continued production of the LP08 right up to the end of the war.

Both pistols are indicated to be 1918 dated, and neither show any proofs according to the post.

[bill m]

Hi,

Something is not right here. Artillery Lugers dated 1918 were all military acceptance proofed. To have two that are not military acceptance marked in any way is not correct for a military artillery. That leaves a couple of options: (1) that these have been messed with, or (2) that they are both post WWI reworks for the commercial market, but they more than likely should be marked Germany or have C/N commercial proofs. And if a rework that took off all the acceptance marks, why wouldn't they take off the date also? What is the date on the holster and why is it serial numbered to the gun? I'd like to hear where these two Lugers came from and who had them. I have never heard of any 1918 "last ditch Lugers", without any acceptance proofs, so I highly doubt that these are original issue guns.


.

hi. i did give what info i had, like serial number

and letter suffix- they were


serial # 2172c and serial # 5334k. there were

no prrof marks that i could find, unless i'm

looking in the wrong places or i have to

take the guns apart (which i really, really do

not want to do)

i bought the two guns at an auction by butterfields here

in san francisco. as usual, they will not provde any

provenance info, so unless someone here has a connection

with the batf and can check who they were transfered from,

i'm out of luck on finding out where they came from.


on the proofs, i looked all over the outside of the guns

for markings (i may have missed some on the second piece,

as i said i have not picked it up, and cannot until the

middle of next month- one gun a month here in california).

there are none that i can see on the first one, unless i'm

looking in the wrong places. i did look at the info on

the site, and do not see any of these marks.


the holster and the stock are both numbered to the first gun, but i did not see a date- there were some markings

besides the serial numbers on the holster, but i could

not really make them out. the leather cap for the stock looks like it says 'maury & co', 'off' and 3-4 more letters.

there's a stamp on the strap with the brass toggle just

above that cap, but i cannot make it out. letters that

look like 'walz' are stamped on the leather at the butt

of the stock. there is some sort of mark above the serial

number in the wood of the stock, but i cannot make it out.


aside from the date and the serial numbers/suffixes on the first gun, the only thing i see is the word 'gesichert'

at the safety, which is in white.

[Marvin]

Bill,


You make some good points about the Lugers. What is your thoughts about them being in the plant when the war ended and never got the military proofs, then someone stole them from the plant? Could this be a plausable idea?


Marvin

[bill m]

Hi Marvin,

I guess anything is possible, but if you go along with that kind of thinking, then just about anything and everything is acceptable.


I do not think these artillery Lugers are correct, or original. With-out seeing them it is really hard to say and one shouldn't even venture to guess, but we were asked for our opinions. I have never seen an original issued Imperial Luger without any acceptance marks, and I'm sure they were making the 4 inch Lugers after they finished with the artillery Lugers in 1918 and we do not see any of them with no proofing. The rework Lugers for the Weimar era were a mixed lot. Some had dates, double dates, some blank, no proofs, new proofs, old proofs and ect., and these could very well be something reworked for the Weimar Army, or Police, or even for a commercial sale. Again, with-out actually seeing and looking at these pieces it is hard to be accurate and this is only a guess. Almost all of the military, police or commercial Lugers of this era has some kind of markings on them though. One thing is for sure though, in my opinion, is that these are not original WWI issue.


Another point that has to be considered is in this day and age, there are big fakers out there. People have the knowledge and ability to "put together" and make just about anything. It is sad to say, but when we see anything that isn't of the normal configuration, we must consider it to be tampered with. These two Lugers are not of a normal configuration and this must be a consideration, I'm sorry to say.


Marianne, the only suggestion I can actually make to you is to take the guns to someone who knows Lugers and can examine and tell you if it has been messed with. A "hands on inspection" is the only way to actually not be guessing as to what has taken place on your guns. I do this some, but you should be able to find someone close to you.


Hope this helps.

Sincerly,

bill munis

[Marvin]

Bill,


I cannot agree with you more! My thoughts about the Lugers being in the plant at the end of the war was a total hypothysis. I based this hypothosis upon what was happening when WWII ended at the Walther plant and the Allies occupied the faclity and had P.38s put together from parts that had been checked and some not checked. It was just an idea for conversation.


I don't know a lot about the end of WWI, but this wa a differnt situation and the plants were not occupied by the Allied forces so this would not be the case as in WWII. I also have never seen an Imperial Luger without proofing!


As you stated, there are so many fakers out there anything could happen. I have seen some Lugers that were faked and the work was superb. It is a shame, but it happens daily. Your suggestion to Marianne is the the only way to know more about the pistols. Great response!


Marvin

thanks for the input. unfortunatly, there are no gun

stores or gunsmiths left in san francisco, and i cannot

travel. do you or anyone on this board know of someone

in san francisco who could look at these, or know of someone

who might be able to travel here?


marainne ades

[John Sabato]

thanks, but there was no text for this message- would you

have an address, phone, etc?

[Johnny Peppers]

Better yet, before you start shipping the pistols all over the US for evaluation get someone to take some good photos of the areas of the pistol which would be useful in determining the correctness of the pistols. I am sure that there are several on the forum that could try to make an evaluation before you take a chance on shipping them.

[Thor]

Ralph usually has a person he trusts to evaluate them all over, perhaps in your area! Call him and find out would be my two pennys! Thor

thanks, but i still need a phone number, etc.

[Thor]

Ralph E. Shattuck - WORLD OF LUGERS

19044 N. 98th Lane Peoria, AZ 85382

Phone: 623/566-0551 Fax: 623/566-1683 Mobile: (602) 790-0313

E-MAIL: Ralph@WorldOfLugers.com


Marianne, try calling him mid morning Phoenix AZ time! HE will be glad to help you! Thor