ATF Question

A few months ago I got this bright idea to buy an inexpensive shooter and convert it to an artillary model. One of the suppliers had some long barrels available and I knew Numrich had the stocks. A lot of you guys sent me advice on which model was best to convert, how to make the rear site etc. John S. mentioned that the ATF might frown on it and that it might be a violation of the law. That advice alone was enough to scare me away from the project. We were just talking about it the other night and one of my shooting buddies asked why it would be against the law. I couldn't answer him. I'm probably missing something here but can anybody give me a reason why putting a long barrel and a stock on a pistol would be risky in the eyes of the ATF.

Tom, If you were to install a longer than 16" barrel on any luger, a stock would be no problem. It gets a bit tricky with either a 6 or 8" barrel, since original or repro stocks are only legal if the weapon that it's placed on (ie original Navy or Artillery) was issued with a stock. Since I'm quite sure that the ATF doesn't have a stocked pistol division out looking for perpetrators, this is what I would call a plea bargin charge. "Tell us were you got the machine gun, and we'll forget about the stocked pistols".

[Johnny Peppers]

The long barrel is not the problem, but the stock is. The only two German military Lugers that were issued with the shoulder stock/holster arrangement was the Navy and the LP08 Imperial Lugers. The BATF has classified these two pistols to be legal as a curio and relic with the shoulder stock as they were originally issued that way, but none of the other pistols were issued with a shoulder stock even though they have the attaching lug. As your Luger would be a converted pistol it would not qualify as having been originally issued with the shoulder stock.

That said, I have not looked at the regulations in several years, and someone may have something later than this.

[Hugh]

Johnny is correct, BUT the regulations state that an Artillery Luger must be mated to an Artillery stock and not a Navy stock, and the same for a Navy Luger; a Navy stock and not an arty stock! Seems that I read somewhere recently that they have ruled that repro stocks are also acceptable as long as it is the correct type as stated above. Either stock with any other type Luger is unlawful.

There are two sections of the National firearms act applying to this question... See the link for the full text......


(a) Firearm. -- The term "firearm" means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2)

a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or

barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a

weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels

of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer

(as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term "firearm" shall not

include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as

a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is

primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.


Part III - Tax on Making Firearms


Sec.


5821. Making tax.


5822. Making.


�§ 5821. Making tax


(a) Rate. -- There shall be levied, collected, and paid upon the making of a firearm a tax at the rate of $200 for each

firearm made.


(b) By whom paid. -- The tax imposed by subsection (a) of this section shall be paid by the person making the firearm.


(c) Payment. -- The tax imposed by subsection (a) of this section shall be payable by the stamp prescribed for

payment by the Secretary.


(Added Pub.L. 90-618, Title II, �§ 201, Oct. 22, 1968, 82 Stat. 1228, and amended Pub.L. 94-455, Title XIX, �§

1906(b)(13)(A), Oct. 4, 1976, 90 Stat. 1834.)


�§ 5822. Making


No person shall make a firearm unless he has (a) filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, to make

and register the firearm on the form prescribed by the Secretary; (b) paid any tax payable on the making and such

payment is evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form; (c) identified the firearm to be

made in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; (d) identified himself in

the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an

individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; and (e) obtained the approval of the

Secretary to make and register the firearm and the application form shows such approval. Applications shall be

denied if the making or possession of the firearm would place the person making the firearm in violation of law.


(Added Pub.L. 90-618, Title II, �§ 201, Oct. 22, 1968, 82 Stat. 1228, and amended Pub.L. 94-455, Title XIX, �§

1906(b)(13)(A), Oct. 4, 1976, 90 Stat. 1834.)





ATF National Firearms Act page

If this information on this thread is to imply that screwing on a barrel to any gun (even if that barrel is same or different length than the original configuration) is "making" a gun; that is incorrect. Any individual can re-configure any weapon within the bounds of the NFA rules and regulations regarding pistols, rifles and bbl lengths without paying any 'tax'. "Making" a gun is the process of fabricating the receiver from steel billet, castings or whatever. Assembly of prior manufactured recievers is not controlled within the definition of "Making Firearms". This interpretation has been the case since inception of the NFA in 1935, with the various mnodifications thereto, and supported in the courts.

[John Sabato]

from ATF, post a reply here and I will dig it out.


-JS

[John Sabato]

In this instance, the "making" of the gun in the eyes of the ATF would be the attachment of a stock (reproduction or otherwise) to a Luger pistol of any barrel length less than 16" (that is not an original Artillery or Navy Model that was issued with a stock) thus "making" a short barreled rifle (SBR) that definitely falls under the NFA...


A personal friend had to forfeit an SBR when he created it prior to paying the tax...

[Dok]

you will find a letter from the BATF oin this very subject!

[Buddy]

Tom,


I hope all of these responses make sense to you. I was reminded of the group of blind men describing an elephant. They are all correct to the extent they cover, although they might not seem to be in exact agreement.


Federal law prohibits "short barreled rifles" unless you get preapproval and pay the tax. A short barreled rifle is one with a barrel length of less than 16". A handgun may have any length barrel from 0" on up. A rifle barrel may legally have any length greater than 16". The sholder stock seems to be the determinining factor that it is a rifle rather than a handgun. You may not legally put a shoulder stock on a handgun with a barrel less than 16" and you may not legally shorten the barrel of a rifle to less than 16" or an overall length of less tha 26".


The Thompson Center Contender is an interesting study. If you start with the handgun version you can put any length barrel on it. And you can add the shoulder stock to make it a rifle provided you first put a 16" or longer barrel on it. But if your original purchase of the frame was as part of a rifle, you may not attach a barrel of less than 16" or remove the shoulder stock if if that causes the overall length to be less than 26". In other words, if you buy a handgun you can convert it to a legal rifle, but if you buy a rifle you cannot convert it to a handgun.


Now, all that said, the BATF has provided some exemptions for certain Curio and Relic weapons, among them the Artillery and Navy lugers/stocks, there is a list on the web. And I have seen the letter from the BATF Technical Department on the web which also exempts reproduction stocks with the appropriate guns. I don't believe a gun you modified by adding a longer artillery barrel would qualify for the exemption and with an 8" barrel it couldn't be a legal rifle. But as long as you don't attach a stock you can use any barrel length you want. On the other hand, if you rebarrel with a 16" or longer barrel you could attach the shoulder stock.


Sorry this is so long but it is a complex subject with some very picky answers, if you want to stay legal.


Buddy

These guns are exempted under section III on the ATF link...


Section III Guns

Luger, Artillery model, pistols having chamber dates of 1914 through 1918

or 1920, having German Weimar Navy markings consisting of the letter M

over an anchor and a German Navy property number accompanied by original

Artillery Luger flat board stocks, bearing German Weimar Navy markings

of the letter M over an anchor with or without Navy property numbers.


Luger, the 1920 Commercial Artillery model, pistols as mfd. by DWM or

Erfurt, having undated chambers, commercial proofmarks, and bearing the

inscription Germany or Made in Germany on the receiver and accompanied

by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.


Luger, DWM Pistol, model 1900, 1902, or 1906, in 7.65 Luger or 9mm parabellum

cal., having the American Eagle chamber crest, and barrel lengths of either

4" or 4-3/4, with original detachable Ideal shoulder stocks and Ideal

frame grips.


DWM Luger, Original models 1904, 1906, 1908, 1914 and 1920. Naval pistols

in 9mm parabellum or 7.65mm cal., in both the Commercial and Naval military

varieties; in both altered and unaltered barrel lengths in themodel 1904

and in both altered and unaltered safety markings in the model 1906; with

original board-type detachable shoulder stocks bearing brass or iron discs,

with or without markings, or, if without brass or iron discs, being of

the Navy flat board-type. This exemption applies only to the listed Naval

Luger pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if

theNaval Luger pistol is mated to the Artillery stock. The Naval stock

has an overall dimension of 12-3/4", a rear width of 4-5/8",

a front width of 1-1/2", a rear thickness of 9/16", and a front

thickness of l-3/16".


Luger, DWM Stoeger model 1920 and 1923, semiautomatic pistols in 7.65mm

or 9mm parabellum cal., in barrel lengths of 8, 10, 12, and 12-1/2",

having either American Eagle chamber crests and/or Stoeger frame and/or

upper receiver marks, having either standard, Navy or artillery rear sights,

having extractors marked either "Loaded" or "Geladen"

and having frame safety markings of either "Gesichert" or "Safe,"

together w/original commercial flat board stocks of the artillery type,

which bear no S/Ns or military proof marks;may include a "Germany"

marking.


Luger, DWM Pistol-Carbine, model 1920, 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal.,

with accompanying original commercial type shoulder stock, with or without

forearm piece, having barrel lengths of 11-3/4" to less than 16".


Luger, German model 1914, Artillery model pistol, mfd. by DWM or Erfurt,

having chambers dated 1914 - -1918, bearing Imperial German military proofmarks

& accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable

wooden shoulder stocks.


Luger, model 1902, Pistol-Carbine, 7.65mm Luger with original commercial

type shoulder stock and forearm and 11-3/4" barrel.


Luger, Persian (Iranian) Artillery model, pistols, as mfd. by Mauser prior

to 1945, accompanied by the original artillery type, detachable wooden

shoulder stock, bearing a S/N in Farsi characters stamped into the wood

on the left side.


Luger, semiautomatic pistol, certain variations with Benke-Thiemann folding

shoulder stock.


Mauser, commercial Luger Artillery model semiautomatic pistols cal. 9mm,

Mauser banner marked, produced under contract for the Royal Thai Police

accompanied by original, German mfd., detachable wooden shoulder stocks.


Section III-A Guns

Borchardt, model 1893, cal. 7.63mm pistol with accompanying shoulder stock.


Section IV Guns

Luger, Mauser commercial manufacture, semiautomatic pistol, 75 Jahre,

Parabellum-Pistol, Mod. Karabiner, Commemorative, caliber 9mm, accompanied

by a carbine type shoulder stock.



ATF C&R exempt list

[Dok]

I have posted your info in the General Info section.

Thanks Buddy

That 16 inch barrel length is the key. I just got my new 2001 copy of Cabela's shooting catalog and low and behold there on page 92 is a kit to turn a Colt 1911 into an artillery model. The barrel provided is 16 and 1/4 inch. Nice but I'd rather spend the money on a luger.

TomN