Specs for original P'08 ammo

tedpark · 08-19-2005, 02:57 PM

Perhaps this is well known - or documented here somewhere - but I'm new and don't know my way around yet.

I would like to know which modern 9mm ammo best approximates the original. Manufacturer and part# would be nice, but what I really want to know are the individual data - bullet weight and shape, ME, MV - that sort of thing.

I'm not a reloader, so don't give me a "recipe". I want to know what I can buy. Many thanks.

Edward Tinker · 08-19-2005, 03:04 PM

There are posts that talk about this, but nothing as specific as you are looking for... Lots of folks use the wal-mart Winchester white box, fairly inexpensive, bullet weight is close to original and works in a lot of guys guns...

Ed

Vlim · 08-20-2005, 01:35 PM

Apart from WalMart Winchester, the Sellier & Bellot 124 gr fmj 9mm is excellent and should function without problems in any well-functioning Luger.

Sieger · 08-20-2005, 02:09 PM

Hi:

A Luger's function is heavily influenced by the weight of the pistol's recoil spring. If your's is weak, through heavy usage or tampering, you'll never find ammo that will function properly!

Here are a few key things that you should be aware of regarding Luger ammo:

Most modern ammo is just too hot for the original spec. Luger recoil spring. Don't buy +P or +P+ loads.

Many hollow point bullet designs are too wide at the tip and jam like hell. Problems here can be avoided by using FMJ ammo.

The O.A.L. of the cartridge is critical for proper function. Avoid "short" cartridges. The S&B 124 gr. mentioned above should be close to the original specs. of 29.6 to 29.8mm.

If you really want to shoot your Luger and get the most out of its design, you will have to reload. The Luger, with proper ammo, is one of the most accurate pistols that I know of.

The suggestions given above for "store bought" ammo are good ones, but don't expect jam free, perfect function.

Sieger

Dwight Gruber · 08-20-2005, 02:27 PM

Ted,

There is no ammunition available which truly replicates the original 9x19 Parabellum round. Modern 9mm Para. ammunition spec. has an overall length slightly shorter than the original. From 1908 to 1914 the bullet was in the shape of a truncated-cone; it was changed to an ogival shape. Bullet weights varied between the range of 70-150 gr.

The practical answer to your question is, that there is modern ammunition, which functionally more-or-less approximates the original ammunition. It seems that overall length and bullet ogive are the crucial to ammunition functioining properly in a Luger; bullet weight is somewhat less of a consideration. It is necessary to perform actual tests to determine what ammunition will function with your Luger

In my experience, Winchester bulk-pack from Wal-Mart, Sellier & Bellot, CCI Blazer, and Federal American Eagle all work consistently and completely reliably in the Lugers I shoot. All these are 115 gr. FMJ.

Remington UMC, Speer Lawman, and all commercial reloads I have tried, consistently and frustratingly fail to operate a Luger properly.

An additional consideration is the magazine. Feed angle is crucial to proper Luger operation. The original Luger pistol was designed for a bottle-necked 7.65mm round; the 9x19 Parabellum cartridge is essentially a necked-up, straight-sided version of this case. This is why 9mm and 7.65mm operate the same firearm: the lower case and head diameter, and length are identical. It is easy to picture why a truncated-cone bullet would feed well in a system which was initially designed for a smaller-diameter bullet entry, and why an ogival bullet might not.

Original crimped-steel Luger magazines, which are 60 to 100 years old, very often have feed lips which are worn or "sprung" and no longer set the next round at the proper angle to feed properly. This exacerbates the feed problem of a cartridge which is the wrong length, or has a bullet with too wide an ogive. Magazine springs can be too weak to retain the bullet firmly in its proper orientation. Extruded-steel magazines, manufactured by Heinel beginning in the late '30s, are inherently more stable, and have been subject to much less use wear.

Modern magazines (particularly those by Mec-Gar) are the way to go for shooting Lugers. One correspondent to these Forums asserts that overall cartridge length is the overriding factor in proper function, and notes that these magazine's internal length is slightly less than the originals, thereby permitting the shorter, modern 9mm Parabellum round to function properly.

--Dwight

Roadkill · 08-21-2005, 10:12 AM

If you can find it the Finnish 9mm made in 1962 is the only ammo I have ever opened, loaded, and shot in my 1918 Erfurt without a problem of some kind. I started reloading simply because of that gun. The thing snaps like a new rat trap using my reloads. As presented previously by those much smarter than I, there are lots of factors involved. My two P38s, BHP,
and Radom will feed anything that is anywhere near decent. Luger won't. Now that I have the right combination for it I reload only to those specs.

Sieger · 08-21-2005, 03:44 PM

Hi Roadkill:

Quote:

Originally posted by Roadkill

Now that I have the right combination for it, I reload only to those specs.

Would you take just a minute and please share your specific load with us!

Case:

Primer:

Bullet:

Powder:

Charge weight:

OAL. of cartridge:

Average accuracy at 25 yards:

Also, do you know whether or not the recoil spring in your Luger is the original, or a replacement?

Yes, I've read in Die Pistole 08, a German language book by Goetz, that the Finnish military ammo was loaded to the original DWM specs. For you to verify the proper operation of your P-08 with this ammo is just a bonus.

Sieger

Roadkill · 08-21-2005, 08:05 PM

Ill go to my toy room later and do some measurements, OAL was based on a Finnish round, I put it in the shell holder and lowered the seating die until it rested firmly on the bullet, I'm using 115g fmj with 5g of red dot and CCI small pistol primers but Winchester small pistol primers work as well. I use a mix of cases. The Luger was restored by Thor so the specs are as new. All springs were replaced, gun works best with a Mecgar magazine. Accuracy is very good, problem is that I have problems seeing that little thin front sight.

rk

Roadkill · 08-21-2005, 09:03 PM

Just got back, here is the info on the Finnish ammo:

Box information:

A 0563 - 25 kpl

101-D SO 64

9.00 pist p 2000 herm

0,385g
vrt 49/62 SO 64

N: 0 6 sinoxid

OAL is 1.158" 29.42mm

bullet width .350.5" 8.91mm

case length is .748" 18.98 mm

width at base of case is .387"

width a neck of case is .374"

My reloads:

1.157 OAL 29.39mm

bullet width .355" 9.02 mm

case length .743"

width at base of case .388"

width at neck of case .334"

tedpark · 08-21-2005, 09:59 PM

Wow - you guys are "very models of a modern major general" -
I'm very well acquainted too with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news---
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.

And - gentlemen and scholars - too.

I'm happy to have started such an interesting and vibrant thread. But y'all left me in the dust. I'm not a reloader (yet) and I don't have a "real" Luger (yet), only a new (to me) Mitchell Stainless reproduction.

So originally - my question had two aspects: 1) What would work well in a Luger (real or cloned), and 2) just an academic and historical interest in what the original ammo was like.

Which, brings me to my final question of the afternoon - where to get a good (or at least adequate) additional magazine for my Mitchell. Perhaps this belongs in a different topic area?

Edward Tinker · 08-21-2005, 10:09 PM

for question #1, see my answer, that is the ammo many folks use...

For your last question, put a Wanted in the Trader Section, and / or watch e-bay... Or simply write the company...

Sieger · 08-22-2005, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roadkill
The Luger was restored by Thor so the specs are as new. All springs were replaced, gun works best with a Mecgar magazine. Accuracy is very good, problem is that I have problems seeing that little thin front sight.
rk

Hi:

Your load is definitely a hot one, per several loading manuals I checked. In fact, it's the hottest load listed for Red Dot in one of the manuals.

Those Wolf recoil springs must be very stiff. I don't know just where they obtained their specifications, but they seem to be a lot stiffer than most original Luger springs. Also, they are much longer than the original springs, making me think that their preload is much heavier than an original.

If your Luger shoots well, you can be happy that you are definitely on the hotter side of the spring equation.

Sieger

Sieger · 08-22-2005, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tedpark
Which, brings me to my final question of the afternoon - where to get a good (or at least adequate) additional magazine for my Mitchell. Perhaps this belongs in a different topic area?

Hi:

I would suggest a new MegGar magazine. These are made in Italy and are of excellent quality. Also, they are 8 shot mags, just like the originals. They sell on e-bay all of the time, though you shouldn't pay more than about $25.00, delivered. Also, they do make one chrome plated (or stainless) to match your stainless steel Luger.

With a new MegGar magazine, I would start out shooting the S&B 124gr FMJ readily available almost everywhere. Someone on their site (when they had one), some time ago, mentioned that they tested their pistols with this ammo for function. Rather this is true or not is unknown to me, but give it a try.

Sieger

PS: Many of us here have been shooting Lugers for 30 or more years. If you are interested in learning how to reload for your Luger, you have found the right site.

Mike B · 08-22-2005, 11:46 PM

While you guys are chating about Luger rounds: I have been wondering for quite some time about a few 9mm bullets I have had for years. I am posting a couple of pictures. Please take a look and tell me if this is a common a round military round or what ever it is Thanks, Mike

Sieger · 08-23-2005, 01:55 AM

Hi:

I bought some of this ammo from Interarms, in Alexandria VA, back in 1971. I shot it through my P-38 with no problem.

I was told that it was Canadian military ammo. Whether or not this is true, I really couldn't tell you.

What I can tell you is that it is corrosive!!!

Please make sure you clean your pistol's barrel with soap and water immediately after shooting it, or you will have a nice surprise awaiting you!!

Sieger

Mike B · 08-23-2005, 06:51 AM

Greetings,
I do apprecaite that informaton. I don't do much shooting, but I will certainly take your warning seriously. Thanks,
Mike

unspellable · 09-13-2005, 08:27 AM

The Wolf (Wolfe?) springs are rated at 36, 38, 40 lbf full load. Wolfe obtained the 38 lbf figure by measuring the recoil spring from a Mauser P08. Measuring only one pistol does not prove you're right, but the above figures are in the ball park

The Wolf springs are much longer than the originals, which means that they have a higher preload than the originals, and that the spring is actually softer than the original even though it has the same loaded force.

How all this works in the actual shoooting, I have no opinions on at present.

It is a common misconception that springs weaken with use. Actually they do not weaken until shortly before total failure. If your Luger's recoil spring does not meet spec, odds are ten to one somebody has been tampering with it. This is very common, I've opened up several shooter grade Lugers and found no two recoil springs alike. Thor concurred with me on this point. I suspect all the spring tampering came about because of the myth that Lugers need hot ammo, where as in reality it's the OAL that is critical. Tampering with the springs is likely to detract from reliability. Georg himself said the entire spring set was a delicate balancing act.

Sieger · 09-21-2005, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by unspellable
The Wolf (Wolfe?) springs are rated at 36, 38, 40 lbf full load. Wolfe obtained the 38 lbf figure by measuring the recoil spring from a Mauser P08. Measuring only one pistol does not prove you're right, but the above figures are in the ball park

Hi Noel:

The Wolf springs look nothing like the spring in my byf 41.

The original 1941 Mauser spring is much shorter and not particularly strong in preload, whereas the Wolf is absurdly long and seems to be way to strong in preload.

Currently, I'm looking at the springs used by Mauser in their 1970's Parabellum production. They are shorter than the originals, but noticeably thicker wire was used in their production. Tom Heller sold me two of these, and I'm going to try them out next month in my 1917 DWM.

I'll keep you informed as to performance.

Sieger

08-20-2005, 02:09 PM	#4
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,579 Thanks: 2,144 Thanked 402 Times in 251 Posts	Ammo Hi: A Luger's function is heavily influenced by the weight of the pistol's recoil spring. If your's is weak, through heavy usage or tampering, you'll never find ammo that will function properly! Here are a few key things that you should be aware of regarding Luger ammo: Most modern ammo is just too hot for the original spec. Luger recoil spring. Don't buy +P or +P+ loads. Many hollow point bullet designs are too wide at the tip and jam like hell. Problems here can be avoided by using FMJ ammo. The O.A.L. of the cartridge is critical for proper function. Avoid "short" cartridges. The S&B 124 gr. mentioned above should be close to the original specs. of 29.6 to 29.8mm. If you really want to shoot your Luger and get the most out of its design, you will have to reload. The Luger, with proper ammo, is one of the most accurate pistols that I know of. The suggestions given above for "store bought" ammo are good ones, but don't expect jam free, perfect function. Sieger

08-21-2005, 10:09 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	for question #1, see my answer, that is the ammo many folks use... For your last question, put a Wanted in the Trader Section, and / or watch e-bay... Or simply write the company... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-22-2005, 11:46 PM	#14
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 272 Times in 100 Posts	While you guys are talking about luger rounds While you guys are chating about Luger rounds: I have been wondering for quite some time about a few 9mm bullets I have had for years. I am posting a couple of pictures. Please take a look and tell me if this is a common a round military round or what ever it is Thanks, Mike

08-23-2005, 01:55 AM	#15
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,579 Thanks: 2,144 Thanked 402 Times in 251 Posts	Re: While you guys are talking about luger rounds Hi: I bought some of this ammo from Interarms, in Alexandria VA, back in 1971. I shot it through my P-38 with no problem. I was told that it was Canadian military ammo. Whether or not this is true, I really couldn't tell you. What I can tell you is that it is corrosive!!! Please make sure you clean your pistol's barrel with soap and water immediately after shooting it, or you will have a nice surprise awaiting you!! Sieger

08-19-2005, 02:57 PM	#1
tedpark User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Specs for original P'08 ammo Perhaps this is well known - or documented here somewhere - but I'm new and don't know my way around yet. I would like to know which modern 9mm ammo best approximates the original. Manufacturer and part# would be nice, but what I really want to know are the individual data - bullet weight and shape, ME, MV - that sort of thing. I'm not a reloader, so don't give me a "recipe". I want to know what I can buy. Many thanks.

08-19-2005, 03:04 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	There are posts that talk about this, but nothing as specific as you are looking for... Lots of folks use the wal-mart Winchester white box, fairly inexpensive, bullet weight is close to original and works in a lot of guys guns... Ed

08-20-2005, 01:35 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Apart from WalMart Winchester, the Sellier & Bellot 124 gr fmj 9mm is excellent and should function without problems in any well-functioning Luger.

08-20-2005, 02:27 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Ted, There is no ammunition available which truly replicates the original 9x19 Parabellum round. Modern 9mm Para. ammunition spec. has an overall length slightly shorter than the original. From 1908 to 1914 the bullet was in the shape of a truncated-cone; it was changed to an ogival shape. Bullet weights varied between the range of 70-150 gr. The practical answer to your question is, that there is modern ammunition, which functionally more-or-less approximates the original ammunition. It seems that overall length and bullet ogive are the crucial to ammunition functioining properly in a Luger; bullet weight is somewhat less of a consideration. It is necessary to perform actual tests to determine what ammunition will function with your Luger In my experience, Winchester bulk-pack from Wal-Mart, Sellier & Bellot, CCI Blazer, and Federal American Eagle all work consistently and completely reliably in the Lugers I shoot. All these are 115 gr. FMJ. Remington UMC, Speer Lawman, and all commercial reloads I have tried, consistently and frustratingly fail to operate a Luger properly. An additional consideration is the magazine. Feed angle is crucial to proper Luger operation. The original Luger pistol was designed for a bottle-necked 7.65mm round; the 9x19 Parabellum cartridge is essentially a necked-up, straight-sided version of this case. This is why 9mm and 7.65mm operate the same firearm: the lower case and head diameter, and length are identical. It is easy to picture why a truncated-cone bullet would feed well in a system which was initially designed for a smaller-diameter bullet entry, and why an ogival bullet might not. Original crimped-steel Luger magazines, which are 60 to 100 years old, very often have feed lips which are worn or "sprung" and no longer set the next round at the proper angle to feed properly. This exacerbates the feed problem of a cartridge which is the wrong length, or has a bullet with too wide an ogive. Magazine springs can be too weak to retain the bullet firmly in its proper orientation. Extruded-steel magazines, manufactured by Heinel beginning in the late '30s, are inherently more stable, and have been subject to much less use wear. Modern magazines (particularly those by Mec-Gar) are the way to go for shooting Lugers. One correspondent to these Forums asserts that overall cartridge length is the overriding factor in proper function, and notes that these magazine's internal length is slightly less than the originals, thereby permitting the shorter, modern 9mm Parabellum round to function properly. --Dwight

08-21-2005, 10:12 AM	#6
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	If you can find it the Finnish 9mm made in 1962 is the only ammo I have ever opened, loaded, and shot in my 1918 Erfurt without a problem of some kind. I started reloading simply because of that gun. The thing snaps like a new rat trap using my reloads. As presented previously by those much smarter than I, there are lots of factors involved. My two P38s, BHP, and Radom will feed anything that is anywhere near decent. Luger won't. Now that I have the right combination for it I reload only to those specs.

08-21-2005, 08:05 PM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Ill go to my toy room later and do some measurements, OAL was based on a Finnish round, I put it in the shell holder and lowered the seating die until it rested firmly on the bullet, I'm using 115g fmj with 5g of red dot and CCI small pistol primers but Winchester small pistol primers work as well. I use a mix of cases. The Luger was restored by Thor so the specs are as new. All springs were replaced, gun works best with a Mecgar magazine. Accuracy is very good, problem is that I have problems seeing that little thin front sight. rk

08-21-2005, 09:03 PM	#9
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Just got back, here is the info on the Finnish ammo: Box information: A 0563 - 25 kpl 101-D SO 64 9.00 pist p 2000 herm 0,385g vrt 49/62 SO 64 N: 0 6 sinoxid OAL is 1.158" 29.42mm bullet width .350.5" 8.91mm case length is .748" 18.98 mm width at base of case is .387" width a neck of case is .374" My reloads: 1.157 OAL 29.39mm bullet width .355" 9.02 mm case length .743" width at base of case .388" width at neck of case .334"

08-21-2005, 09:59 PM	#10
tedpark User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow - you guys are "very models of a modern major general" - I'm very well acquainted too with matters mathematical, I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical, About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news--- With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse. And - gentlemen and scholars - too. I'm happy to have started such an interesting and vibrant thread. But y'all left me in the dust. I'm not a reloader (yet) and I don't have a "real" Luger (yet), only a new (to me) Mitchell Stainless reproduction. So originally - my question had two aspects: 1) What would work well in a Luger (real or cloned), and 2) just an academic and historical interest in what the original ammo was like. Which, brings me to my final question of the afternoon - where to get a good (or at least adequate) additional magazine for my Mitchell. Perhaps this belongs in a different topic area?

08-23-2005, 06:51 AM	#16
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 272 Times in 100 Posts	Greetings, I do apprecaite that informaton. I don't do much shooting, but I will certainly take your warning seriously. Thanks, Mike

09-13-2005, 08:27 AM	#17
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The Wolf (Wolfe?) springs are rated at 36, 38, 40 lbf full load. Wolfe obtained the 38 lbf figure by measuring the recoil spring from a Mauser P08. Measuring only one pistol does not prove you're right, but the above figures are in the ball park The Wolf springs are much longer than the originals, which means that they have a higher preload than the originals, and that the spring is actually softer than the original even though it has the same loaded force. How all this works in the actual shoooting, I have no opinions on at present. It is a common misconception that springs weaken with use. Actually they do not weaken until shortly before total failure. If your Luger's recoil spring does not meet spec, odds are ten to one somebody has been tampering with it. This is very common, I've opened up several shooter grade Lugers and found no two recoil springs alike. Thor concurred with me on this point. I suspect all the spring tampering came about because of the myth that Lugers need hot ammo, where as in reality it's the OAL that is critical. Tampering with the springs is likely to detract from reliability. Georg himself said the entire spring set was a delicate balancing act.