Stainless (O NO) steel question

[Hugh]

Does anyone know if the stainless steel the AIMCO Lugers are made out of is magnetic?

Kind of hate to mention the "S" word again. Yes they will attract a magnet--just checked three of them. I just bought another at a show, NIB 6" Stoeger variation $450. Does this make me a three time looser?

[Hugh]

Hey Art,


Thanks for checking. I will buy all of those s******** Lugers I can find for $450! Great deal!

[Dok]

ART:


I am a Luger "Lover" not a "Collector"

I have a: Matching> ~ 60 % > 1940 > "42", that I have had for 40 Years.

I call it the "Bloody Beast" because It has extensive evidence of surface corrosion of the type caused by blood.

It is 100% mechanically however.

And I love shooting it ( Do so regularly).


Although it is not a Collector Piece, ( And I would never consider Upgrading/restoring it - I want to keep it just the way it is) It does have considerable personal value to me, ( I got it off a Nazi ).


I do not however, want to "Shoot it Out"!


I have thought about getting one of the "Stainless"

( there, I said it ) repros for daily shooting.


Do they function as reliably as the originals?

Do they "feel" the same?

Do they look the same (aside of course from finish).


I would be looking for a used (spell inexpensive) one.

[ Maybe new if they are not too expensive].


What brands/Manufacturers should I look at.

What should I be prepared to pay?

Where should I look?


(You got one you could be convinced to sell me?)


renaissance

[John Sabato]

Like AuctionArms.com and Gunbroker.com


they come up available there often. Just make sure you do the transaction with caution, since you don't know who you will be dealing with...


These auctions almost always have photos to accompany the item being auctioned.


The Stainless guns are all made by the same manufacturer no matter whose name you find on them.


Do a search on "stainless" on this forum to see the controversy about these modern reproductions...


regards,


John

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Hi Philip


I assume you would be greatly dissapointed if you bought a SS Luger as the quality is not near the real lugers.

I can't se any reaon to buy the crap as you can find real lugers for the same money.

Russian reworks or or missmatching shooting lugers does normally not cost very much and the quality is FAR HIGHER than the SS lugers.


The SS luger have the following problems.

They are softer than real lugers.

THey are not nearly as well made, with much bigger tolerances.


The principle for the toggle action is that the rearward preassure on the linksystem should be taken by the radiuses on the toggles and not by the pins.

But the fit on american SS lugers are so poor that the pins have to take the preasure.


A Luger pistol is one of the most time consuming pistols to produce and I have read somewhere that a luger needs 1180 machineoperations while a browning pistol (m/1903) needs 50.

I don't know how truth that is but I know for sure that it's for sure impossible to produce scuh a gun outside of Germany and Switserland today.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[ViggoG]

HÃ?Â¥kan ;

Greetings from a grandson of the Kanneworff family .


I do not wish to disagree with you, but In these days of computer driven tooling, especially Multi spindle Lathes and five axis milling machines . The only reason that nothing of luger quality is being produced or re-produced is strictly based on the profit motive .


I know because I for one am capable of programming these machines to produce parts such as these much faster , with less fixturing , fewer setups , and to closer tolerances than were ever possible between 1900 and 1950 . And this can be done in Precipitation Hardning Stainless Steel that can be finished in any color from straw to medium or deep blue , and rust resistant to go with it .


They can be manufactured of better steel , to more consistent quality and possibly even at lower cost . If only there were some profit motive to justify the many hours of programming and testing that would be required to produce or re-produce these fine guns .


With what can be done with modern thechnology I can not understand why anyone would produce a Luger Copy using old machining techniques and any other than the best Precip. Hardning stainless steels which are in all ways superior to the carbon steels that were used in the Classic Luger .


I guess we must blame much of it on The dissapearance of pride in ones work and the profit motive which now so degrades our world today .


I wish to make it very clear that I find none of this low quality work from our associates on this forum , where Quality and Pride are of the first order .


ViggoG

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Hi Viggo


As I worked 8 years a Toolmaker before I went over to full time gunsmith I can only agree with what you says.

There is some wonder qualitys of stainless steels that would make wonderfull guns.

But due to the difficulties to machine those steels there would probably never be a gunmaker that would use them.


There is also a great missbelif that casting produces the same or even higher quality than machined parts are.

And I must highly disagree with this as casting in my opinion is only done when the quality doenst matter very much and when cost is highly important.


I am personally never i favour of using carbon steels but the combination of the steel and heattreatment that the original luger producers used is SUPERIOR to what aimco is using in their lugers.


In one thing I must though say that I think you are wrong and that is when you say that everything produced yesterad can easaly be produced today due to our better machinery.

The big problem is that the qualified gunmaking and toolmaking trades have not maintained it's many qualified personal.

There is simply not enough people around the world today that have the skill to produce really high quality.


This is a thing that is higly proven by the fact that almost all the American gun producers quality have falled to close to unaceptable levels today.

Compere a new manufactured win 94 with one that was made 1894 or compere a S&W revolver made today with one made in the 60th.


The skill problem is highly remarkable when you try to employ people, its almost impossible to find skilled people those days. This is ofcourse due to that the pride in the trade is since long lost and that mostly young people today not should work with lathes and files but with econimics and computers.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Marvin]

Viggo,


I am an engineer from the mechanical side and before working for an engineering company, I worked in industry with most of my time at large machine shops as the manufacturing engineering manager. I completly agree that a Luger could be produced from quality steel, with the same precision as procuded by the Germans. BUT, it would take a lot of programming and testing, and a large quantity produced to make it economically feasible.


I am also going to jump in on the stainless steel thread. In my opinion, stainless is great for a revolver which will be carried, fired to maintain your "edge", but not with hot loads. This is great for Police duty. As to a stainless automatic, no, they are just not suited for this purpose. The tolerances must be much looser to prevent galling and you must use a high pressure grease to prevent galling anyway. Why do they gall, the stainless steel is sofet than carbon steel and stainless cannot be heat treated to provide the surface hardness and then leave the core material in a sofet state to allow for the stresses which transmitt over the entire pistol during firing. With this said, there are stainless steels with certain heat treatments that would work, but this is the type mateial used in the space industry and the firearm produced in that manner would not be affordable. The best material still for a firearm is CARBON STEEL!


Now, I want to speak about machining the steels. There are 3 ways to obtain a finished part. 1-machine the part from bar stock. 2-hammer forge the part and finish machine. 3-investment casting and finish machine. To me, the best way is the forging. This allows the part to be produced as a semi-finished part, and the part has low stress, and much stronger. Next is the investment cast part; this type produces a part that is really close to the final product after casting. many people think of casting like the cast iron we are accustomed to seeing. A high quality investment casting produces a great part, with low stress and keeps the costly maching to a minimum. Finally, the machining of bar stock is the most expensive, the part must be stress relieved by heat treating processes, then a final heat treatment and the finishing. This produces a part with the molecular construction of the steel in more or less a straight line; where forging and casting produces a molecular construction that is flowing, and this flowing is where the streangth comes from. This again, all is determined by the part. Some parts are better using all machining, some forging, some casting, so you can't say that one way for all, but a part must be engineered to properly produce the results needed for the task! Just a few of my thoughts on the subject, and my opinon only, I don't like stainless steel automatics, ha, ha, ha.


Marvin

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Hi Marvin


I agree completely that stainlees automatic pistols are junk, but that is just because its to expensive to use proper materials.


When you say carbon steel is best, do you really mean carbon steel? 4140 wish is since maybe 40 years back one of the most used steels is not a carbon steel. It's an alloy steel and that is pretty different from a carbon steel.

I can't see any reasons to use carbon steels at all.

That belongs to the past.


During my 8 years as a toolmaker in Sweden and Austria (worked for Voere for a short period) I have never come across any imporositys in steel, NEVER.


During my 5 years as a full time gunsmith I have come across imporositys more times than I can count to.

And in all cases its in American steels, mostly invesmentcast **** but also quite a lot in forgings.


The forging is probably a good method when its used correct but in order to be as cost effective as possible much ****forgings are produced.

Problems with forgings is probably when the material is forged to cold and this way both imporositys and CRACKS can accour.


Firearms that have been problematic to me when it comes to cracks and imporositys is

Ruger, Caspian, Les Baer, Ed Brown, Para ordonance to meantion some.


Investment casting is only suitable when the quality not is very important, I prefer barstock and rarely see any problems whatsoever with it.

The majority of tools and machinery produced is made from barstock and that is probably because of the high quality.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan





http://www.vapensmedjan.com

Hakan,


You find porosity (American spelling) in American forgings, investment castings, etc. I you said this was "American ****". How many are examples of failures? I have been a mechanical engineer for forty years, and if you take the stand that "no porosity is allowed or the design will fail" obviously have no idea as to what your talking about. You need to move into modern engineering times an leave your your shade tree engineering behind you. I hace bought Swiss and Autrian products products and found their engineering on a par with the United States. Where are you coming from?

REB

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

I comes from Sweden

I havbe maybe bought totally 10 frames from Les baer (1911 frames) .

Those are forged, I don't remeber exactly but at least half of those was cracked in the dustcover.

New frames crackes.

When fine poliched the looks like wood in the structure cause the structure is SO course.

It's normally not possible to see the steel structure with the eyes, but in this case it is.

The majority of american 1911 parts that we bought that was investmencast have problems, parts as beavertails, safetys, paraordonance frames, caspian frames etc.

Those problems are often really annoying porositys.


The design will not fall due to one small porosity but I get bloody mad when i find 3-5 small holes within the area I chequering on a pistol.

I also get quite irritated when i find holes in a beavertail that I just finnished finnishing on.

My anger was total when I recived a frame back from harchroming and the hardchrome looked like wood even though I had beadblased it before sending it off to hardchrome.

So in a way you are right just because there is a bunch of bloody holes in my chequering it doesnt mean the design have falled.

But I know for sure that if the frame had been made out of Swedish Uddeholm or German B�¶hler Barstock steel and they had dropped the investmentcasting and forging those problems would NEVER exist.


One of the best producers of pistolbarrels in America is only using Brasilian and Japanese Stainless steel for his barrels as the quality on the American one is to uneven.


During my 8 years as a toolmaker ( mainly making cavitys in plastic moulds where the smallest porosity is totally unaceptable.) I have never seen any such problems in steel.


Best Regards HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Steve]

This thread of comments has been an interesting read. As an owner of one of the stainless steel guns, am I welcome as a member of this forum? I bought it because I wanted a new gun that I could afford to shoot and not watch dollar signs go out the barrel with each shot. I also like the way it looks and now that I have found a brand of ammo that it feeds reliably, it is fun to shoot. What more could I ask for?

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Steve


You are of course more than welcome to the forum regardless what kind of gun you have or not have.

It's probably well known here now what I thinks abouth stainless semiauto pistols but every now and then there is someone that asks about the quality of those and then I answers.

I really hope you don't take my comments about the SS guns personally cause that have never been my intention.


Best Regards HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr


Ps.

My primary shooting Luger is a missmatched terrible condition shooter that I bought for 150 USD and then rebuilt.





http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Steve]

I am glad to hear that I am welcome. I am a newbie at the Luger game and am trying to learn. My only experience with a Luger prior to buying the SS one was in the late 1960's a friend had a 6" DWM in .30cal. Ammo was hard to find and most of it did not cycle the action very well but it was still fun to shoot. I will contribute when I can but mostly will be a sponge unless I read something that pertains to a question. By the way, your custom target pistols look great!

I am fascinated at the knowlege and information in this thread about stainless versus non-stainless Lugers. Thanks for sharing that knowledge so guys like me, without any engineering knowledge whatsoever, (a retired lawyer), can lurk, open mouthed. In the end, I guess we can make our own choice. For about the same price we can: (1) buy a stainless, knowing it's not of particularly good quality, but still fun to shoot; or (2) buy a mismatched "shooter" Luger, knowing it's not a collector piece, but still fun to shoot. Regardless, thank you again, engineers and gunsmiths, for sharing. Regards, Ad.