Black Grips- Again

[Marvin]

OK guys, I just got back in town this morning at midnight and back at wotk at 6:00 AM. I wanted to see what the comments were on the infor I received on the Black Grips.


It appears that a documented source is not good enough to settle the question as to when the black grips began. I still believe that they were used beginning in the "q" block just as August Weiss stated. I also feel that they were used on a random basis from this point on. These are my opinions and I feel they are justified. Now, others do have opinions and I repect them as we need these differing opinons to come up with a solution; I call it "brainstroming"! In addition, I also feel that in a production situation in wartime, almost anything can happen. even in peacetime machine shops, I have seen all rules broken to get a product "out the door".


Keep the comments coming, even if we can't have 100% proof.


Marvin

[Marvin]

I just read the "HOAX" response to my information gathering and I am appaled at the attack. I have no problem with contradictions to any information I gave, but I would never purposly pass along false information. As to my misspellings, I apoligize as I was writing the information in a hurry and did not spell check. I guess I will have to watch this a little closer.


This information was freely given to me by Herr Gortz and I consider him to be one of the world's experts on Lugers. As to the inofrmation being false, I have no documentation, but take Herr Gortz's word for this. Herr Gortz was at one time a leader inproviding information to collectors, but after getting several "Bum" delas on Lugers from American dealers, being told that he was wrong on many subjects, he stopped most conversations with Americans since they felt they knew more about Lugers than a German with access to the archives. Patrick, I appreciate your comments and I cannot refute any of them and it makes for more intertesting discussions whcih is what this Forum is all about, keep them coming.


But I want to tell anyone on this Forum, don't try to call me as someone who will try to "pull a fast one" on you. I certainly am open to correction, as I don't believe that I know everything and no else here does either. All I was trying to do was obtain information to assist all collectors. Lets keep it this way.


Marvin

[renaissance]

Marvin:

First of all. I am in no way even a Minory Authority on Lugers.

Furthermore, I would never accuse you of perpetuating a "Hoax" in a "Mean Spirited Way".


It is a GREAT Story;

But:

**********

Critical Convoys ( How much room does a set of grips take?)breaking down with Flat Tires (No Spares?) in the "Black Forest".


Emergency "Bicycle Relays" in the middle of the night.


"Heroic Flight Missions" by "Legendary Aviatrixes" (lesbian or not) to "Secret Factories" in "Nazi Death Camps"


************

Really Now!


Is it possible that Herr Gortz was pulling YOUR leg? Perhaps in "good spirited" retribution for having been hasseled in the past.


Re your post:

"

I have no documentation, but take Herr Gortz's word for this. Herr Gortz was at one time a leader inproviding information to collectors, but after getting several "Bum" delas on Lugers from American dealers, being told that he was wrong on many subjects, he stopped most conversations with Americans since they felt they knew more about Lugers than a German with access to the archives

"


If this was a "Prank" (rather than a "Hoax").

It was a good one.

And many seem to have got caught up ( and caught ) in it.


I for one take pride that I can look at my own foibles with good humor.


Lets not take ourselves too seriously.

Lighten up.

[Marvin]

Renaissance,


Herr Gortz does not "Pull Anyones Leg"; I trust his information and I was passing along information for discussion. I was not there when this happened, Gortz was not there when it happened, but Herr Weiss was there. Why would Herr Weiss totally lie about this incident to a group of collectors? I don't know because I have no proof. Does anyone on this Forum have any proof it did not happen as Herr Weiss stated? All responses have been have been speculative to the report that the German industies would not do this.


This is the second time I have spent a lot of my time, and other folks in Europe, helping us understand more about the Luger and then have this information be called a hoax or fake information. I understand differing opinons and I appreciate those, but how can anyone prove this statement by Herr weiss in not correct?


marvin

[renaissance]

No offense intended!

To either Yourself OR Herr Gortz.


Sorry......... I had heard (opined in this forum) that contrary to popular belief, Germans DID have a sense of humor.


I'm out of here!

[Marvin]

Renaissance,


Definetly no offense taken by me. As I have stated we all need to work together in unraveling the Luger mystery and many questions.


Marvin

[bill m]

Hi Marvin,

First off let me say that I know you only contributed this as an aid to all collectors. Second, I feel this is a "prank", and because someone like Weiss reportedly said it, you are taking it as fact. This is not fact for a couple of reasons.


(1) This is simply a way to make almost any byf a two magazine rig, which is not right. By saying that you could have any byf from the q block on with black plastic grips and black plastic magazines is just simply not correct and is only trying to make a complete rig out of a gun that was originally issued with two serial numbered matching magazines and wood grips. If you want to believe this and you think it is going to make your gun more valueable, then by all means do it, but serious collectors are not going to accept this as fact and are going to stick by what the data sheets tell us, and that is up until the U block, possible the T block, all byf's had wood grips and serial numbered magazines.


(2) Someplace there is a directive stating that black plastic grips were to be used in or after June of 1941. If you go through the letter blocks -- N & O = Jan, P = Feb, Q =March, R = April, S = May, T = June, U = July ect., so perhaps there is some black plastic grips in the T block, but not before, as they would only be replacements.


(3) Look at the magazines and tell me when you start seeing black plastic magazines and it will be around the U block of all original vet bring back guns. Data sheets say that byf's up until the U blocks had serial numbered magazines. I'm sure that in production they did not skip numbers and do 10 and then issue 10 black plastic's and then tool up and serial number another 10 and so forth. I do not have any recorded complete rigs before the U block with 2 matching serial numbered magazines with Black Grips. They are all wood grips up until the U block and then you have black plastic grips with 2 matching serial numbered magazines in the U block.


Again, everyone has an opinion, but the facts according to recorded Luger information just does not back Weiss's statement. This is a good "fish story", and it goes right back to the hoax that all black was SS and ect. -- SS Black Widow -- which is not correct either. This is just a way to try and spruce up a byf. The only way that we can understand how all this took place and in the order that it took place is to study large Luger data sheets and see how they are recored, and when things started appearing on a regular bases, and in this case, the grips and the magazines did not start showing up on a regular bases until the U block of the byf 41's. That is totally not true about things getting in a mess in war time and anything goes. There was an order to things and it was followed. They just did not mix everything up to turn out a gun. If that was the case, you would have all kinds of mis-matched Lugers, as just any way to turn out a gun.


Again, no offense meant, but we all have to use our heads and think about this stuff, and not believe everything that is printed or someone said. They make mistakes also and get confused and mixed up from time to time also. Just my observations, so believe what you want to, but the data sheets do not support Weiss's statements.

[Patrick]

Marvin, this should, in all reality, be unnecessary BUT I have gone to the trouble of `phoning G�¶rtz to find out how this preposterous story came about. You contacted a third party (M) and asked him to contact his sources in Europe to find out exactly when Mauser introduced black grips. M contacted G�¶rtz who, like many other authorities, is continually besieged by requests for information. G�¶rtz made it quite clear that he did not consider the question of any importance. An exact date for the change to black grips is very unlikely as previous stocks would have to be used up. M insisted on an answer and G�¶rtz invented this story but did not believe for one moment that M would take him seriously. In fact M MUST have known that none of the details are credible to anyone with even a limited knowledge of European history or geography.

Ergo:-

(a) Germans DO have a sense of humour.

(b) The absurdity of Luger myths is obviously a function of the distance from the source.


PS I couldn�´t care the proverbial monkey�´s whether Hannah Reitsch was lesbian or even whether she sodomized Idi Amin on a regular basis. She was certainly a nasty piece of work. Patrick

BLACK GRIPS ARE UGLY PERIOD AND THEY ARE FAKE THEY WERE USED TO PUT FIRTH A VILLIAN IMAGE OF THE GUN OHHH MYSTERY INTRIGUE--ALL FAKE DUDE

GET NICE WALNUT GRIPS INTSTEAD

[renaissance]

Thank you Patrick !


I found myself needing a sanity Check there for a while.


renaissance