Auction Arms #6541649

Lyn Islaub · 03-18-2005, 04:38 PM

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=6541649

There seems to be a second serial number on the barrel, but then again I don't know much about these early Eagles. Some input from some of you more knowledgable would be appreciated.
Thx, Lyn

Edward Tinker · 03-18-2005, 06:17 PM

Is 172,xx the metric for 7.65 mm? I.E. the land to land measurement we are used to seeing for 9mm as in 8,83

Just something in the back of my mind?

ed

Ron Wood · 03-18-2005, 06:35 PM

It is the old system...the number of lead balls of 7.65mm diameter required to make a pound.

southriv · 03-18-2005, 10:00 PM

I am also very curious about this second number under the barrel. I am going to look at a similar Eagle tomorrow for the second time. It is marked in the same manner. It is my lack of knowledge about the two numbers that is putting me off. Any answers out there wouldf be appreciated.

Bob

tudorbug · 03-19-2005, 12:55 PM

Bob:

The second number under the barrel in the AA photos, just below the number that Ron commented on, appears to be the weapon's serial number, 46098.

There appears to be a flawin like a sideways comma between the 0 the the 9.

I hope this is small help.

David

southriv · 03-19-2005, 11:24 PM

Hi David,

Thanks for the reply. It's the number above the serial number I'm referring to. Actually, since I last posted, I have inspected a 1906 Eagle and seen pics of two others - all have the unexplained number above the serial number/below the BUG proofs.

Bob

Tomathvl · 03-20-2005, 12:09 AM

Southriv,
Ron Wood answered your question. Read his reply.
Tom

Lyn Islaub · 03-20-2005, 12:26 AM

Thanks to all of you for your input. Once again the Forum proves to be the most concentrated collection of Luger knowledge in the world. Other than honest wear, I can't see much wrong with this pistol. So, maybe I'll get lucky and the bidding won't go through the roof. Fat chance.
Lyn

tudorbug · 03-20-2005, 09:41 AM

A bug proofed AE 1906 will not be inexpensive, I shouldn't think, but I wish you the best of luck with it, Bob.

David

Ron Wood · 03-20-2005, 10:02 AM

It is a kind of interesting piece. It is the second American Eagle Luger I have encountered that has the circle B marking on the bottom of the barrel flange. Both are within 300 serial numbers of each other. The circle B mark is what identifies a Brazilian contract Luger, so I have no idea why it would show up on an American Eagle. I wild guess would be that the barrels are production over-runs of replacement barrels for the Brazilian contract. Use of production over-runs for American Eagles appears to have been a common, or at least a not unknown, practice for DWM. The first run of early 1900 American Eagle Lugers (approximately 100 pieces) had barrels marked with the Swiss Federal cross.

drbuster · 03-20-2005, 10:06 AM

Is anyone researching whether there was a pattern of BUG proofing on the 1906 Eagles, and for that matter, 1900 Eagles? Dwight Gruber has compiled quite a list of serial #'s and details on early commercial Lugers. It seems to me that BUG proofing is randomly interspersed through the serial number range. Mike Krause has a 1906 BUG proofed AE that also has a later serial number.

Dwight Gruber · 03-20-2005, 12:31 PM

Herb,

Proofing pattern is one of the things I hoped to establish when I started my survey. The database is growing pretty large, but I'm afraid that I don't have enough samples which include proofing information to make a determination. What I see -suggests- that your random distribution is a reasonable conclusion.

--Dwight

MauserLugers · 03-20-2005, 01:14 PM

I have a 1906 4 inch 9mm model that has the "Circle B" markings. Heard of only a couple of others in the 4 inch models that had it and all were fairly close together serial number wise. -- Bill

Ron Wood · 03-20-2005, 01:41 PM

Bill,
The two "Circle B" Eagles I have noted are 120mm/7.65mm, so you have, and have heard of, the only 100mm/9mm examples reported to me so far. If you do not want to post serial numbers here, would you send me a PM so that I can add it to the database?
Thanks.
Ron

P.S. Is yours an Eagle or commercial?

southriv · 03-20-2005, 07:02 PM

Tom,

Regarding....

"It is the old system...the number of lead balls of 7.65mm diameter required to make a pound"

...really? The math seems right, though I don't want to go down in history as the most gullible person on the forums. Seriously, I have lots of respect for the experienced collcetors on this forum...

-I have nne more question on collectability, regarding AEs, though it may need another thread. I have a line on another 1906AE in similar condition -BUG proofed and, at the same time, a 1900AE eagle is also available, same condition & price range. Given that I am partial to early/imperial era, which would you lean towards, if you had the choice. Investment value is always part of the decision process for me, but not always the one that breaks the tie.

Thanks, Bob

Dwight Gruber · 03-20-2005, 07:22 PM

Southriv,

Ron and Tom are giving you the straight goods, no gullibility worries. The system is still with us, it is the method by which is derived our modern shotgun guage.

I wish I had a good answer for you on which model--1900/1906 I would lean toward. If the 06 is in 9mm I'd snap it up in a heartbeat. Otherwise I'd have to look at the specifics of the pistols. Is the 1900 an early gun, type-2 thumb safety? or a Test Eagle, perhaps? I'd be attracted to those.

Is the 1906 one of the documented Hans Tauscher Spy Lugers? is the extractor marked Loaded? Again, attractive featurs for me.

Be sure to let us know what you decide, and why.

--Dwight

southriv · 03-23-2005, 12:08 AM

Dwight, I am leaning towards the 1900AE. I looked at it once and will get to take another look by next week. It has the 2nd type thumb safety and a 1st type grip safety. The trigger guard is the wide type with a narrow trigger. I remember that the serial was in the 9000 range, but do not remember if it was BUG proofed. If I read the responses here correctly, not all AEs were BUG proofed.

The finish seems to be betweeen 90 & 95% - more leaning towards 90% with much of the straw left - I don't know how to rate this - 50%? There is some wear on the grips, too, but overall the wear on the pistol is even, the bore is nice (but not mint) and the pistol appears to have been carefully used but not abused (no pitting or rust). Function- wise, I notice the toggle was sometimes a bit difficult to pull open - possibly due to my lack of awkwardness with the toggle lock feature (did have the grip safety pressed down).

As for my choice - it just has an appeal - part visual, part history & last, it seems within my kind of budget, vs the 95-99% examples I have seen - which all seem well up there. I know everyone would like to see pictures before offering a judgement as to value range, but any ideas?

Thanks, Bob

Edward Tinker · 03-23-2005, 12:27 AM

Bob, no help in value, but for me; I always go to Simpson's and look around, drop by Shattuck's too, then look on the gun auction boards, plus Adams's, etc., you get the point, I try to compare apples and oranges, then decide if it is in my budget, or if it just sings to me....

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 03-23-2005, 01:02 AM

Bob,

Guessing a Luger's value without even seeing pictures is a hopeless endeavour. Give this a try, go to http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...highlight=2104 and compare your prospective 1900 to the gun profiled there.

Although conventional wisdom has it that 1900AE are found with BUG proofs, my database suggests that they are in the minority.

The trick about operating the toggle of a 1900 is to remember that it has a toggle lock, preventing the toggle from being drawn straight up. The toggle must be pullded rearward, almost to the frame ramps, before it can be raised. The differences in the toggle knobs between the Old Model and the New Model are actually functional in this regard. The dished toggle, fluted on the front edges, is designed specifically to be pulled rearward. The checkered faces of the New Model are designed to be grasped by those faces to facilitate pulling them upward.

--Dwight

southriv · 03-23-2005, 07:52 AM

Thanks, Dwight.

Regarding your answer on the toggle, I can see what you mean. Handling and inspecting a 1900 provides a lot of understanding as to the nature of the improvements made to the 1906.

As for the variety of markings, it is apparent that, as more AEs are "discovered" , the knowledge of the range of markings, charactaristics and productions ranges is constantly changing. I have many of the books going back to Datig and see many updates (and contradictions) when scanning all the available information on a particular model.

Bob

03-18-2005, 04:38 PM	#1
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Auction Arms #6541649 http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=6541649 There seems to be a second serial number on the barrel, but then again I don't know much about these early Eagles. Some input from some of you more knowledgable would be appreciated. Thx, Lyn

03-18-2005, 06:35 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	It is the old system...the number of lead balls of 7.65mm diameter required to make a pound. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-20-2005, 10:02 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	It is a kind of interesting piece. It is the second American Eagle Luger I have encountered that has the circle B marking on the bottom of the barrel flange. Both are within 300 serial numbers of each other. The circle B mark is what identifies a Brazilian contract Luger, so I have no idea why it would show up on an American Eagle. I wild guess would be that the barrels are production over-runs of replacement barrels for the Brazilian contract. Use of production over-runs for American Eagles appears to have been a common, or at least a not unknown, practice for DWM. The first run of early 1900 American Eagle Lugers (approximately 100 pieces) had barrels marked with the Swiss Federal cross. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-20-2005, 01:41 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Bill, The two "Circle B" Eagles I have noted are 120mm/7.65mm, so you have, and have heard of, the only 100mm/9mm examples reported to me so far. If you do not want to post serial numbers here, would you send me a PM so that I can add it to the database? Thanks. Ron P.S. Is yours an Eagle or commercial? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-18-2005, 06:17 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Is 172,xx the metric for 7.65 mm? I.E. the land to land measurement we are used to seeing for 9mm as in 8,83 Just something in the back of my mind? ed

03-18-2005, 10:00 PM	#4
southriv User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Countryside New England Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am also very curious about this second number under the barrel. I am going to look at a similar Eagle tomorrow for the second time. It is marked in the same manner. It is my lack of knowledge about the two numbers that is putting me off. Any answers out there wouldf be appreciated. Bob

03-19-2005, 12:55 PM	#5
tudorbug Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 387 Thanks: 0 Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts	Bob: The second number under the barrel in the AA photos, just below the number that Ron commented on, appears to be the weapon's serial number, 46098. There appears to be a flawin like a sideways comma between the 0 the the 9. I hope this is small help. David

03-19-2005, 11:24 PM	#6
southriv User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Countryside New England Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi David, Thanks for the reply. It's the number above the serial number I'm referring to. Actually, since I last posted, I have inspected a 1906 Eagle and seen pics of two others - all have the unexplained number above the serial number/below the BUG proofs. Bob

03-20-2005, 12:09 AM	#7
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Southriv, Ron Wood answered your question. Read his reply. Tom

03-20-2005, 12:26 AM	#8
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Thanks to all of you for your input. Once again the Forum proves to be the most concentrated collection of Luger knowledge in the world. Other than honest wear, I can't see much wrong with this pistol. So, maybe I'll get lucky and the bidding won't go through the roof. Fat chance. Lyn

03-20-2005, 09:41 AM	#9
tudorbug Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 387 Thanks: 0 Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts	A bug proofed AE 1906 will not be inexpensive, I shouldn't think, but I wish you the best of luck with it, Bob. David

03-20-2005, 10:06 AM	#11
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Is anyone researching whether there was a pattern of BUG proofing on the 1906 Eagles, and for that matter, 1900 Eagles? Dwight Gruber has compiled quite a list of serial #'s and details on early commercial Lugers. It seems to me that BUG proofing is randomly interspersed through the serial number range. Mike Krause has a 1906 BUG proofed AE that also has a later serial number.

03-20-2005, 12:31 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Herb, Proofing pattern is one of the things I hoped to establish when I started my survey. The database is growing pretty large, but I'm afraid that I don't have enough samples which include proofing information to make a determination. What I see -suggests- that your random distribution is a reasonable conclusion. --Dwight

03-20-2005, 01:14 PM	#13
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	I have a 1906 4 inch 9mm model that has the "Circle B" markings. Heard of only a couple of others in the 4 inch models that had it and all were fairly close together serial number wise. -- Bill

03-20-2005, 07:02 PM	#15
southriv User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Countryside New England Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, Regarding.... "It is the old system...the number of lead balls of 7.65mm diameter required to make a pound" ...really? The math seems right, though I don't want to go down in history as the most gullible person on the forums. Seriously, I have lots of respect for the experienced collcetors on this forum... -I have nne more question on collectability, regarding AEs, though it may need another thread. I have a line on another 1906AE in similar condition -BUG proofed and, at the same time, a 1900AE eagle is also available, same condition & price range. Given that I am partial to early/imperial era, which would you lean towards, if you had the choice. Investment value is always part of the decision process for me, but not always the one that breaks the tie. Thanks, Bob

03-20-2005, 07:22 PM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Southriv, Ron and Tom are giving you the straight goods, no gullibility worries. The system is still with us, it is the method by which is derived our modern shotgun guage. I wish I had a good answer for you on which model--1900/1906 I would lean toward. If the 06 is in 9mm I'd snap it up in a heartbeat. Otherwise I'd have to look at the specifics of the pistols. Is the 1900 an early gun, type-2 thumb safety? or a Test Eagle, perhaps? I'd be attracted to those. Is the 1906 one of the documented Hans Tauscher Spy Lugers? is the extractor marked Loaded? Again, attractive featurs for me. Be sure to let us know what you decide, and why. --Dwight

03-23-2005, 12:08 AM	#17
southriv User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Countryside New England Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, I am leaning towards the 1900AE. I looked at it once and will get to take another look by next week. It has the 2nd type thumb safety and a 1st type grip safety. The trigger guard is the wide type with a narrow trigger. I remember that the serial was in the 9000 range, but do not remember if it was BUG proofed. If I read the responses here correctly, not all AEs were BUG proofed. The finish seems to be betweeen 90 & 95% - more leaning towards 90% with much of the straw left - I don't know how to rate this - 50%? There is some wear on the grips, too, but overall the wear on the pistol is even, the bore is nice (but not mint) and the pistol appears to have been carefully used but not abused (no pitting or rust). Function- wise, I notice the toggle was sometimes a bit difficult to pull open - possibly due to my lack of awkwardness with the toggle lock feature (did have the grip safety pressed down). As for my choice - it just has an appeal - part visual, part history & last, it seems within my kind of budget, vs the 95-99% examples I have seen - which all seem well up there. I know everyone would like to see pictures before offering a judgement as to value range, but any ideas? Thanks, Bob

03-23-2005, 12:27 AM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Bob, no help in value, but for me; I always go to Simpson's and look around, drop by Shattuck's too, then look on the gun auction boards, plus Adams's, etc., you get the point, I try to compare apples and oranges, then decide if it is in my budget, or if it just sings to me.... Ed

03-23-2005, 01:02 AM	#19
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Bob, Guessing a Luger's value without even seeing pictures is a hopeless endeavour. Give this a try, go to http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...highlight=2104 and compare your prospective 1900 to the gun profiled there. Although conventional wisdom has it that 1900AE are found with BUG proofs, my database suggests that they are in the minority. The trick about operating the toggle of a 1900 is to remember that it has a toggle lock, preventing the toggle from being drawn straight up. The toggle must be pullded rearward, almost to the frame ramps, before it can be raised. The differences in the toggle knobs between the Old Model and the New Model are actually functional in this regard. The dished toggle, fluted on the front edges, is designed specifically to be pulled rearward. The checkered faces of the New Model are designed to be grasped by those faces to facilitate pulling them upward. --Dwight

03-23-2005, 07:52 AM	#20
southriv User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Countryside New England Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, Dwight. Regarding your answer on the toggle, I can see what you mean. Handling and inspecting a 1900 provides a lot of understanding as to the nature of the improvements made to the 1906. As for the variety of markings, it is apparent that, as more AEs are "discovered" , the knowledge of the range of markings, charactaristics and productions ranges is constantly changing. I have many of the books going back to Datig and see many updates (and contradictions) when scanning all the available information on a particular model. Bob