Open letter to the Luger Forum

Frank · 06-19-2001, 03:02 PM

I believe that every one has the right to express ones opinion, no matter the controversy. It appears that I am at the mercy of a few individuals that disagree with me.

This has been an informative experience and I have developed many friends. I hope that my actions will not destroy those relationships.

I can no longer put up with the censorship that has recently developed on these genera and I have asked to have my photo removed from the Rogues Gallery and my Profile removed from the Profile Data.

IÃ¢??ll see you later,

Frank

John D. · 06-19-2001, 03:16 PM

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about (apparently - I missed something soemwhere)?

Anyway - I have not seen any posts deleted nor words censored - not even my posts.. ;^) So - want to enlighten the rest of us as to "whats up with this"???!!!

(BTW: I'll still be your friend - you can't get rid of me that easy )

BILL · 06-19-2001, 03:23 PM

While we all have the right to do whatever we want I, for one, think we all benefit from everyone who has even the slightest interest in the Luger pistol. I know I have learned from Frank and that he has contributed much to the Lugerforum. Controversy is not a bad thing. I read all articles that are posted here and have always been amazed at how well we all behave. I, at times, have probably been the most sarcastic and antagonistic on this forum (but I am doing better). We benefit from everyone's opinions whether we agree with them or not. In for a penny, in for a pound, stick around!..oh, and while your at it..take me to your Luger!!

John Sabato · 06-19-2001, 03:37 PM

Thor · 06-19-2001, 03:39 PM

Frank, I have removed my profile at least once, but returned it later. I think what happens is we all love Lugers so much and are so passionate about them if affects our emotions WAY more than it should! I know it does me that way. I have hopefully learned when I get upset with folks here beyound what I can tolerate (which is rare) or maybe I have something going on in my personal life that makes me a bear to talk to or be around, that I will "go away" for a while until the problem fixes itself. Marvin can vouch for this because I continue to talk to him off the forum even when I am grouchy. It is amazing that it always seems to, but that is just me. I am hoping you will choose that avenue instead of a full pulling of the ejection seat. I have come to like you as a friend and valued client. Your mechanical experience and carrear lends itself to being of value to this forum. I hope you choose to stay on and rethink your decision. besides, if you leave who will call me tea door! TedThorboyor sup'n like that!

Dok · 06-19-2001, 03:54 PM

I had hoped my words to you offline would prevent you from burning any bridges. There are rules to this forum, one is no bad behaviour. You were guilty of that. The other is, that if I decide a thread is going nowhere and it is detrimental to the group, I will stop it. I did that.

If you can't take your whuppin' like a man, and stand up and be counted, (and before you suggest I couldn't do no whuppin' - go read my profile) then perhaps you do need to go off and lick your wounds. You are a valuable member of this Forum, I have an enormous amount of time and respect for you, but you are no better than anyone else here, you put your pants on one leg at a time just like me, and more importantly, you're not above the rules.

I do hope you will see your way clear to rejoin this group in time, I for one look forward to it.

Respectfully

Dok

Frank · 06-19-2001, 04:31 PM

You sent me nothing off line. I don't need you to tell me that I can't take a wuppin!! and I don't give a rat's back side what your profile sez. I believe I can express my opinion, any damn time I want to and you, nor anyone else can prevent it.

John D. · 06-19-2001, 04:40 PM

What a shame.

Frank - I said it a moment ago in a private e-mail to you, and I know that I am not alone in this - you are a huge asset to this site. You, along with the combined wisdom, knowledge and friendship - help set the tenor of what this site and what this Forum have evolved into. I tried to say much the same to Luke yesterday, in the thread about his grips - and how this place on the Internet is a haven for sharing that same friendship and enthusiasm. We all have a common point of interest and we all share that same camaraderie around that common interest. It's all about Lugers.

For that - there are a few things that this Forum is not, IMNSHO. It is not "real life". For example, people "read" posts - and it is difficult to accurately gauge what the original senders "tone" was or was not. For example - you may "read" this post thinking I'm typing it at a sarcastic level - but in fact, that could not be farther from the truth. Others may "read" this post - and feel it is a sanctimonious ramble that was written for no other reason then to try to patch the apparent rift between you and other members. That - in fact, still is far from the truth.

What my view is - is somewhat simpler.

This place we all appreciate so much - exists because we all conform to the "norms" of the forum. DOK got "volunteered" to help us all keep that decorum intact. Frankly - it is not an enviable position. In fact - it's a damned difficult position. As you know - I have the same task on nearly 100 e-mail lists and Web Forums that attract over 75,000 people each and every day. And sometimes - I find I'm in a similar situation as DOK was - where I have to ask a friend or someone I know to stop a thread or a comment. And yes - I've had to ban a "friend" from posting. And yes - when that happens - it sucks. And no - I don't enjoy that aspect of moderating a list, and I don't think anyone would Ã¢?? including DOK. These "relationships" are fragile enough given they are held together simply with words on an Internet Board. And as I mentioned above - in many cases, those same words are misinterpreted, misrepresented or misconstrued.

To the point of censorship - I understand your view, and I respect it. But at the same time, I'll ask you to respect DOK's role as described above - as it is NOT an envious position to be put in. He jeopardizes "friendships" each and every time he posts and asks to flames/threads to cease. BUT - without his ability to ask for a conversation to stop - then we lose EXACTLY what we came for here originally - which is "that open forum where folks can feel free to express thoughts without retribution".

So in either case - both yours and DOK's position has "no winner". Such is the Internet.

But in a larger sense - each time this happens - we all lose. We all lose your thoughts, your comments, your wisdom - and the friendship that is publicly offered each time you post. And that is the real shame. And for that - I, too, ask you to reconsider - both as a friend and as person who respects each and every time you expose that friendship by posting here at all.

My Best Always,

John D.

Hugh · 06-19-2001, 04:49 PM

I think that John D. has said it very well, and for all of us. Please take a breather and reconsider. After all, if you leave then I only have Ted to pick on!

Thor · 06-19-2001, 04:56 PM

Hugh pick on me? He's got my BABY! I guess I will have to take a little ribbing! Hey Hugh, are you busy making babies? AH SHOOT! That is PUNNY! But I guess.........that was my aim!! Seriously, we need to all go to RES's, talk Lugers, get drunk and we will all feel a hell of a lot better! TheoThor

Hugh · 06-19-2001, 05:11 PM

I honestly, seriously,intended to work on your baby this week. But flood clean up, yard maintenance, Fathers Day and honey do's have completely wiped it out! Maybe next time in!

Thor · 06-19-2001, 05:23 PM

NO RUSH!!! Take care of your family! We are all glad you guys made it through this mess! My best to you and Minta! Ted

G.T. · 06-19-2001, 05:50 PM

Hi Frank, Take some time and calm down, reconsider, and take stock in the fact that you are well received and respected, by all!....I would greatly miss your interaction on the forum, hope you can see your way fit to stay, or come back, cuz there's a lot of neat Luger stuff we haven't checked out yet! till....later...your friend, G.T.

Mark M. · 06-19-2001, 10:33 PM

Gruss Gott,Kinder!

Hier sage ich Kinder und habe das

Wort bewusst eingesezt!!! Es war kein

Fehler meinerseits!!

We (and I include myself) have lost our way a tad bit here.The whole reason

I ever posted on this Forum was to be

able to ask stupid questions without

fearing scathing attacks for my stupidity,but to get responsible (to the best of anyone's knowledge) answers

to the stupid question! I have found this Forum to be most helpful.I admit, if I knew just a little more,I could ask more of them,but I've been very happy with the responses I've gotten

here.

I thank you all.There are many new

(to me anyway) names showing up. I

would merely like to say thanks to you,

Dok,for your valiant efforts to keep things within reason and not just bailing,as I most likely would have done!

For those of you who have been of help to me with regard to info as well

as otherwise (Dok,Thor,David,Rick W.,

Marvin,Kyrie,John D.,John Sabato,Frank,

G.T.,Tracey-I hope all is well,Bob!,and all the others now to numerous to retain in my small and ever deminishing memory),Thank You!

I hope I haven't been too disruptive

in my attitudes and observations in my

brief time in your company.If so,I will

try to improve my behavior.

Now I would like to make a heartfelt

request.Might everyone else please try

to regain some equalibrium as well.I,

and I suspect many other "newbies",have

a great deal to learn from all you

"opinionated oldbies".Vorwarts(should

have umlaut!),if you please!

Thanks for the valuable space to place a long OT message.

Tschuss! Mark M.

bill m · 06-19-2001, 10:57 PM

Hi Frank,

I know how you feel as I was in about the same situation about two months ago. My dad was very sick and things weren't going that well here on the ranch and I was irritated at the smallest of things. I know in a couple of days you will miss the forum and talking Lugers and we will be missing your answers also. All of us have to use cooler heads on all this.

Hi Dok,

That especially goes for you to, Dok. You are the monitor and should be neutral so to speak. You need to be firm and have control, but you do not need to get "tough, sarcastic, smart, and deliberately humiliate someone", as this just gets them pissed off and they fight back. Saying stuff like "you act like a baby and you need a spanking", and "take your whopping like a man" and ect. is just plain un-called for and just added to the problem. If you have to get tough, then get tough, but don't get involved in these mean word games, as it pissed me off and I'm sure it did Frank also. There is a more polite way to lay the law down.

So, for my input in this, I think your both have over reacted, and you both need to shake hands and start over, and we all need to communicate in a more polite manner. That doesn't mean you have to cave into someone else's opinion. You should state your opinion and then walk away so to speak. If people ask a question, or want a comment, our answers aren't always the ones they want to hear, but that's what this forum is all about, being able to express our opinions, even if they are not the most popular or the most readily accepted. You guys work this out like gentlemen, please!

Dok · 06-20-2001, 07:28 AM

and if you check, you will see my original post was dignified and respectful. And again, following an email to me, I sent Frank a lengthy email offline, and in the nicest of terms, tried to encourage him to change his mind and put all this, both in perspective and behind him. He claims he never received that email. But when he then comes in the Forum and starts in again, with unreasonable accusations, perhaps I lost it at that point, because my conciliatory gestures were appartently being ignored. I apologize to the Forum and to Frank for my choice of wording, for I too was annoyed at that point. I also would like this to be resolved, but Frank needs to recognize that my actions in stopping the thread, were not an attack on him personally, and I'm not sure he does. In any event, Frank will choose his own timing, but ultimately I trust he will return to the group, we will still be here when he gets back.

Luke · 06-20-2001, 07:41 AM

As a lifelong admirer of Lugers, but not a collector until this month, I cannot tell you all how happy I was to find this forum. All of my (some of them dumb) questions have been answered promptly and responsibly. I am grateful for that.

I have had numerous email exchanges with Frank and two phone conversations, and I found him to be unusually helpful and friendly. I like him a lot.

I also participate in a woodworking forum similar to this one, and the same kind of flare-up sometimes occurs there. Fortunately, it soon dies down, and we get back to business.

I sincerely hope that happens here. My two cents.

06-19-2001, 03:02 PM	#1
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Open letter to the Luger Forum I believe that every one has the right to express ones opinion, no matter the controversy. It appears that I am at the mercy of a few individuals that disagree with me. This has been an informative experience and I have developed many friends. I hope that my actions will not destroy those relationships. I can no longer put up with the censorship that has recently developed on these genera and I have asked to have my photo removed from the Rogues Gallery and my Profile removed from the Profile Data. IÃ¢??ll see you later, Frank

06-19-2001, 03:16 PM	#2
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 473 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Frank..??? I'm not quite sure what you are talking about (apparently - I missed something soemwhere)? Anyway - I have not seen any posts deleted nor words censored - not even my posts.. ;^) So - want to enlighten the rest of us as to "whats up with this"???!!! (BTW: I'll still be your friend - you can't get rid of me that easy )

06-19-2001, 03:23 PM	#3
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Frank..??? While we all have the right to do whatever we want I, for one, think we all benefit from everyone who has even the slightest interest in the Luger pistol. I know I have learned from Frank and that he has contributed much to the Lugerforum. Controversy is not a bad thing. I read all articles that are posted here and have always been amazed at how well we all behave. I, at times, have probably been the most sarcastic and antagonistic on this forum (but I am doing better). We benefit from everyone's opinions whether we agree with them or not. In for a penny, in for a pound, stick around!..oh, and while your at it..take me to your Luger!!

06-19-2001, 03:37 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Frank?? Please check your email... -John (EO

06-19-2001, 03:39 PM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Don't Do THAT! Frank, I have removed my profile at least once, but returned it later. I think what happens is we all love Lugers so much and are so passionate about them if affects our emotions WAY more than it should! I know it does me that way. I have hopefully learned when I get upset with folks here beyound what I can tolerate (which is rare) or maybe I have something going on in my personal life that makes me a bear to talk to or be around, that I will "go away" for a while until the problem fixes itself. Marvin can vouch for this because I continue to talk to him off the forum even when I am grouchy. It is amazing that it always seems to, but that is just me. I am hoping you will choose that avenue instead of a full pulling of the ejection seat. I have come to like you as a friend and valued client. Your mechanical experience and carrear lends itself to being of value to this forum. I hope you choose to stay on and rethink your decision. besides, if you leave who will call me tea door! TedThorboyor sup'n like that!

06-19-2001, 03:54 PM	#6
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I'm sorry you're going public Frank... I had hoped my words to you offline would prevent you from burning any bridges. There are rules to this forum, one is no bad behaviour. You were guilty of that. The other is, that if I decide a thread is going nowhere and it is detrimental to the group, I will stop it. I did that. If you can't take your whuppin' like a man, and stand up and be counted, (and before you suggest I couldn't do no whuppin' - go read my profile) then perhaps you do need to go off and lick your wounds. You are a valuable member of this Forum, I have an enormous amount of time and respect for you, but you are no better than anyone else here, you put your pants on one leg at a time just like me, and more importantly, you're not above the rules. I do hope you will see your way clear to rejoin this group in time, I for one look forward to it. Respectfully Dok

06-19-2001, 04:31 PM	#7
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Now look who is doing the personal attack!!! You sent me nothing off line. I don't need you to tell me that I can't take a wuppin!! and I don't give a rat's back side what your profile sez. I believe I can express my opinion, any damn time I want to and you, nor anyone else can prevent it.

06-19-2001, 04:40 PM	#8
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 473 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Ahhh - now I understand the background.... What a shame. Frank - I said it a moment ago in a private e-mail to you, and I know that I am not alone in this - you are a huge asset to this site. You, along with the combined wisdom, knowledge and friendship - help set the tenor of what this site and what this Forum have evolved into. I tried to say much the same to Luke yesterday, in the thread about his grips - and how this place on the Internet is a haven for sharing that same friendship and enthusiasm. We all have a common point of interest and we all share that same camaraderie around that common interest. It's all about Lugers. For that - there are a few things that this Forum is not, IMNSHO. It is not "real life". For example, people "read" posts - and it is difficult to accurately gauge what the original senders "tone" was or was not. For example - you may "read" this post thinking I'm typing it at a sarcastic level - but in fact, that could not be farther from the truth. Others may "read" this post - and feel it is a sanctimonious ramble that was written for no other reason then to try to patch the apparent rift between you and other members. That - in fact, still is far from the truth. What my view is - is somewhat simpler. This place we all appreciate so much - exists because we all conform to the "norms" of the forum. DOK got "volunteered" to help us all keep that decorum intact. Frankly - it is not an enviable position. In fact - it's a damned difficult position. As you know - I have the same task on nearly 100 e-mail lists and Web Forums that attract over 75,000 people each and every day. And sometimes - I find I'm in a similar situation as DOK was - where I have to ask a friend or someone I know to stop a thread or a comment. And yes - I've had to ban a "friend" from posting. And yes - when that happens - it sucks. And no - I don't enjoy that aspect of moderating a list, and I don't think anyone would Ã¢?? including DOK. These "relationships" are fragile enough given they are held together simply with words on an Internet Board. And as I mentioned above - in many cases, those same words are misinterpreted, misrepresented or misconstrued. To the point of censorship - I understand your view, and I respect it. But at the same time, I'll ask you to respect DOK's role as described above - as it is NOT an envious position to be put in. He jeopardizes "friendships" each and every time he posts and asks to flames/threads to cease. BUT - without his ability to ask for a conversation to stop - then we lose EXACTLY what we came for here originally - which is "that open forum where folks can feel free to express thoughts without retribution". So in either case - both yours and DOK's position has "no winner". Such is the Internet. But in a larger sense - each time this happens - we all lose. We all lose your thoughts, your comments, your wisdom - and the friendship that is publicly offered each time you post. And that is the real shame. And for that - I, too, ask you to reconsider - both as a friend and as person who respects each and every time you expose that friendship by posting here at all. My Best Always, John D.

06-19-2001, 04:49 PM	#9
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Frank.......... I think that John D. has said it very well, and for all of us. Please take a breather and reconsider. After all, if you leave then I only have Ted to pick on!

06-19-2001, 04:56 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Frank..........HUGH!!! Hugh pick on me? He's got my BABY! I guess I will have to take a little ribbing! Hey Hugh, are you busy making babies? AH SHOOT! That is PUNNY! But I guess.........that was my aim!! Seriously, we need to all go to RES's, talk Lugers, get drunk and we will all feel a hell of a lot better! TheoThor

06-19-2001, 05:11 PM	#11
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	TED........ I honestly, seriously,intended to work on your baby this week. But flood clean up, yard maintenance, Fathers Day and honey do's have completely wiped it out! Maybe next time in!

06-19-2001, 05:23 PM	#12
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Hugh.......... NO RUSH!!! Take care of your family! We are all glad you guys made it through this mess! My best to you and Minta! Ted

06-19-2001, 05:50 PM	#13
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Frank! Whats going on here! Hi Frank, Take some time and calm down, reconsider, and take stock in the fact that you are well received and respected, by all!....I would greatly miss your interaction on the forum, hope you can see your way fit to stay, or come back, cuz there's a lot of neat Luger stuff we haven't checked out yet! till....later...your friend, G.T.

06-19-2001, 10:33 PM	#14
Mark M. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 72 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Frank! Whats going on here! Gruss Gott,Kinder! Hier sage ich Kinder und habe das Wort bewusst eingesezt!!! Es war kein Fehler meinerseits!! We (and I include myself) have lost our way a tad bit here.The whole reason I ever posted on this Forum was to be able to ask stupid questions without fearing scathing attacks for my stupidity,but to get responsible (to the best of anyone's knowledge) answers to the stupid question! I have found this Forum to be most helpful.I admit, if I knew just a little more,I could ask more of them,but I've been very happy with the responses I've gotten here. I thank you all.There are many new (to me anyway) names showing up. I would merely like to say thanks to you, Dok,for your valiant efforts to keep things within reason and not just bailing,as I most likely would have done! For those of you who have been of help to me with regard to info as well as otherwise (Dok,Thor,David,Rick W., Marvin,Kyrie,John D.,John Sabato,Frank, G.T.,Tracey-I hope all is well,Bob!,and all the others now to numerous to retain in my small and ever deminishing memory),Thank You! I hope I haven't been too disruptive in my attitudes and observations in my brief time in your company.If so,I will try to improve my behavior. Now I would like to make a heartfelt request.Might everyone else please try to regain some equalibrium as well.I, and I suspect many other "newbies",have a great deal to learn from all you "opinionated oldbies".Vorwarts(should have umlaut!),if you please! Thanks for the valuable space to place a long OT message. Tschuss! Mark M.

06-19-2001, 10:57 PM	#15
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Frank - Dok -- Read This! Hi Frank, I know how you feel as I was in about the same situation about two months ago. My dad was very sick and things weren't going that well here on the ranch and I was irritated at the smallest of things. I know in a couple of days you will miss the forum and talking Lugers and we will be missing your answers also. All of us have to use cooler heads on all this. Hi Dok, That especially goes for you to, Dok. You are the monitor and should be neutral so to speak. You need to be firm and have control, but you do not need to get "tough, sarcastic, smart, and deliberately humiliate someone", as this just gets them pissed off and they fight back. Saying stuff like "you act like a baby and you need a spanking", and "take your whopping like a man" and ect. is just plain un-called for and just added to the problem. If you have to get tough, then get tough, but don't get involved in these mean word games, as it pissed me off and I'm sure it did Frank also. There is a more polite way to lay the law down. So, for my input in this, I think your both have over reacted, and you both need to shake hands and start over, and we all need to communicate in a more polite manner. That doesn't mean you have to cave into someone else's opinion. You should state your opinion and then walk away so to speak. If people ask a question, or want a comment, our answers aren't always the ones they want to hear, but that's what this forum is all about, being able to express our opinions, even if they are not the most popular or the most readily accepted. You guys work this out like gentlemen, please!

06-20-2001, 07:28 AM	#16
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Thank you bill m, your point is well taken... and if you check, you will see my original post was dignified and respectful. And again, following an email to me, I sent Frank a lengthy email offline, and in the nicest of terms, tried to encourage him to change his mind and put all this, both in perspective and behind him. He claims he never received that email. But when he then comes in the Forum and starts in again, with unreasonable accusations, perhaps I lost it at that point, because my conciliatory gestures were appartently being ignored. I apologize to the Forum and to Frank for my choice of wording, for I too was annoyed at that point. I also would like this to be resolved, but Frank needs to recognize that my actions in stopping the thread, were not an attack on him personally, and I'm not sure he does. In any event, Frank will choose his own timing, but ultimately I trust he will return to the group, we will still be here when he gets back.

06-20-2001, 07:41 AM	#17
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Thank you bill m, your point is well taken... As a lifelong admirer of Lugers, but not a collector until this month, I cannot tell you all how happy I was to find this forum. All of my (some of them dumb) questions have been answered promptly and responsibly. I am grateful for that. I have had numerous email exchanges with Frank and two phone conversations, and I found him to be unusually helpful and friendly. I like him a lot. I also participate in a woodworking forum similar to this one, and the same kind of flare-up sometimes occurs there. Fortunately, it soon dies down, and we get back to business. I sincerely hope that happens here. My two cents.