Interesting Chamber Engraving...

Pete Ebbink · 02-21-2005, 10:18 PM

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/00pres.htm

Thor · 02-22-2005, 12:18 AM

You know.....those guys take darn good photos.

Edward Tinker · 02-22-2005, 12:29 AM

yes, I am looking for a new digital camera, but MUST take good close ups.

Thoughts?

Heinz · 02-22-2005, 06:37 AM

Ed, When I looked two years ago the Nikon's took the best digital closeups. I get good perfomance from mine and it is a "coolpix" version.

I cannot however get it to go out of focus in precise areas like the Phoenix arms folks. Also I think someone needs to explain to them the difference between relieved and unrelieved frames for their photos.

I believe this Luger is Tom Heller's personal carry weapon. And I believe Pete posts these links just to wake us up in the morning.

THanks Pete!

Ron Smith · 02-22-2005, 09:15 AM

This is the personal sidearm of Adolf's little known twin brother, Tyrone. He moved to Paris and became a Can-Can dancer.

Powdercrank · 02-22-2005, 10:39 AM

Has anybody enquired on the price?

Ron Wood · 02-22-2005, 11:20 AM

I Believe 531 is the highest serial number I have heard of still having an unrelieved frame.

Pete Ebbink · 02-22-2005, 11:47 AM

Hi Heinz,

I just thought the engraving work was worth looking over...not sure if I buy the 100 year old story about when the engraving was done...

Wonder if this one had the little Swiss cross on the side of the barrel...?

Regards,

Pete...

Dwight Gruber · 02-22-2005, 10:12 PM

Pete,

I've looked at the photos pretty carefully and haven't seen a Swiss cross. It is adjacent to a group of serial# without them.

Ron,

I have recorded BUG-proofed Swiss Commercial #725 with an unrelieved frame.

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 02-22-2005, 10:24 PM

Hi Dwight,

See your PM's about the photos...

Pete...

Heinz · 02-22-2005, 10:27 PM

Pete, I appreciate the effort you put fforth in searching the WEB and keeping us posted.

The engraving is interesting but it has the look more of an English Jeweler's work than a German gun engraver. It is also interesting how Phoenix has a constant supply of these rarities. Not even Ralph Shattuck can keep up with them.

AND a sincere thanks to Pete, he is better than Google.

Pete Ebbink · 02-22-2005, 10:46 PM

POR must mean "Piece of Rework"...

But in defense of the seller, at least the word "Original" is not used when describing the gun's remaning % blue and straw...

Pete...

Lugerdoc · 02-23-2005, 10:26 AM

Pete & Ed, I wish that this beautiful recreation had been done for me or that I was capable of doing this kind of work. Had I been putting my initials on the chamber, I don't think that I would have added the "diamond thingee" to the right of the "T" shaft. This makes me question if the initial are actually "TH". I just wonder what shape this pistol was in before they decided to make it into a "presentation piece". TH

Pete Ebbink · 07-04-2005, 10:50 PM

Another presentation piece (offered by PIA/WOL) with chamber engraving that looks like it was done by the same craftsperson :

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=34287522

(Photos taken off of Gun-Broker and not the copyrighted PIA site...but of course...I have those too...)

Imperial Arms · 07-05-2005, 02:19 AM

The link which Pete provides at the beginning of this topic leads to a 'Presentation' Luger pistol which is very, very suspicious indeed. Allow me to point out the 'dead give-away'. How can a M1900 presentation Luger (from a commercial model) have the serial number on the right side of the take-down lever and magazine relaease button which is usually seen on military Lugers? I have never seen a M1900 Presentation Luger (with gold chamber markings/initials) with the serial numbers on the locations which I have mentioned.

Albert

10e.licorne · 07-05-2005, 07:58 AM

hi Albert
may be it's take on the swiss contrat the unrelieved frame meat that no ?
an go to the commercial proof ?
you are suspicious
best regards
jean-marie

Herb · 07-05-2005, 11:25 AM

In my opinion this is in fact an M1900 and it is a presentation model but the two never took place at the same time. The price is listed just above the last photo as $12,500. I think I need to get a few of mine made into presentation models and unload them at PIA.
Pete, I don't think that the same engraver did both of them, note the champhering around the edges of the letters in the second one, the CR letters, that style is not evident in the M1900 photos.

Pete Ebbink · 07-05-2005, 11:48 AM

Herb,

I think the other photo on the copy-protected web site of the "Tom Heller" or the otherwise named "Tommy Hitler" presentation M1900 (photo of the chamber shot from the side) does show the same type of chamfer...but maybe not as deep.

From the stylized engraving and the nicely done refinish...I would bet it was done by the same craftsman...but this is just a WAG...

Herb · 07-05-2005, 11:56 AM

Pete, you may be correct, there are some similarities in the 'line' presentations on both of them plus the use of the diamond style, what stuck out was the style of champhering, perhaps a difference in the cost of the work? The color of the inlay in pretty much the same.

Pete Ebbink · 07-06-2005, 12:08 AM

These "presentation" pieces are certainly coming out of the wood work...

This is the one that surfaced at Reno and then the RIA auction about a year ago...same seller...

02-21-2005, 10:18 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Interesting Chamber Engraving... http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/00pres.htm

02-22-2005, 12:18 AM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 971 Times in 277 Posts	You know.....those guys take darn good photos. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-22-2005, 12:29 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	yes, I am looking for a new digital camera, but MUST take good close ups. Thoughts? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-22-2005, 09:15 AM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	This is the personal sidearm of Adolf's little known twin brother, Tyrone. He moved to Paris and became a Can-Can dancer. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

02-23-2005, 10:26 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Pete & Ed, I wish that this beautiful recreation had been done for me or that I was capable of doing this kind of work. Had I been putting my initials on the chamber, I don't think that I would have added the "diamond thingee" to the right of the "T" shaft. This makes me question if the initial are actually "TH". I just wonder what shape this pistol was in before they decided to make it into a "presentation piece". TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

02-22-2005, 06:37 AM	#4
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Ed, When I looked two years ago the Nikon's took the best digital closeups. I get good perfomance from mine and it is a "coolpix" version. I cannot however get it to go out of focus in precise areas like the Phoenix arms folks. Also I think someone needs to explain to them the difference between relieved and unrelieved frames for their photos. I believe this Luger is Tom Heller's personal carry weapon. And I believe Pete posts these links just to wake us up in the morning. THanks Pete!

02-22-2005, 10:39 AM	#6
Powdercrank User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: North Central Indiana Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Has anybody enquired on the price?

02-22-2005, 11:20 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,119 Thanked 5,286 Times in 1,728 Posts	I Believe 531 is the highest serial number I have heard of still having an unrelieved frame. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-22-2005, 11:47 AM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Hi Heinz, I just thought the engraving work was worth looking over...not sure if I buy the 100 year old story about when the engraving was done... Wonder if this one had the little Swiss cross on the side of the barrel...? Regards, Pete...

02-22-2005, 10:12 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Pete, I've looked at the photos pretty carefully and haven't seen a Swiss cross. It is adjacent to a group of serial# without them. Ron, I have recorded BUG-proofed Swiss Commercial #725 with an unrelieved frame. --Dwight

02-22-2005, 10:24 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Hi Dwight, See your PM's about the photos... Pete...

02-22-2005, 10:27 PM	#11
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Pete, I appreciate the effort you put fforth in searching the WEB and keeping us posted. The engraving is interesting but it has the look more of an English Jeweler's work than a German gun engraver. It is also interesting how Phoenix has a constant supply of these rarities. Not even Ralph Shattuck can keep up with them. AND a sincere thanks to Pete, he is better than Google.

02-22-2005, 10:46 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	POR must mean "Piece of Rework"... But in defense of the seller, at least the word "Original" is not used when describing the gun's remaning % blue and straw... Pete...

07-04-2005, 10:50 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Another presentation piece (offered by PIA/WOL) with chamber engraving that looks like it was done by the same craftsperson : http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=34287522 (Photos taken off of Gun-Broker and not the copyrighted PIA site...but of course...I have those too...)

07-05-2005, 02:19 AM	#15
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	The link which Pete provides at the beginning of this topic leads to a 'Presentation' Luger pistol which is very, very suspicious indeed. Allow me to point out the 'dead give-away'. How can a M1900 presentation Luger (from a commercial model) have the serial number on the right side of the take-down lever and magazine relaease button which is usually seen on military Lugers? I have never seen a M1900 Presentation Luger (with gold chamber markings/initials) with the serial numbers on the locations which I have mentioned. Albert

07-05-2005, 07:58 AM	#16
10e.licorne User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: near Perpignan in France Posts: 85 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	hi Albert may be it's take on the swiss contrat the unrelieved frame meat that no ? an go to the commercial proof ? you are suspicious best regards jean-marie __________________ d'nt say i will do it .... do it

07-05-2005, 11:25 AM	#17
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	In my opinion this is in fact an M1900 and it is a presentation model but the two never took place at the same time. The price is listed just above the last photo as $12,500. I think I need to get a few of mine made into presentation models and unload them at PIA. Pete, I don't think that the same engraver did both of them, note the champhering around the edges of the letters in the second one, the CR letters, that style is not evident in the M1900 photos. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-05-2005, 11:48 AM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Herb, I think the other photo on the copy-protected web site of the "Tom Heller" or the otherwise named "Tommy Hitler" presentation M1900 (photo of the chamber shot from the side) does show the same type of chamfer...but maybe not as deep. From the stylized engraving and the nicely done refinish...I would bet it was done by the same craftsman...but this is just a WAG...

07-05-2005, 11:56 AM	#19
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, you may be correct, there are some similarities in the 'line' presentations on both of them plus the use of the diamond style, what stuck out was the style of champhering, perhaps a difference in the cost of the work? The color of the inlay in pretty much the same. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-06-2005, 12:08 AM	#20
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	These "presentation" pieces are certainly coming out of the wood work... This is the one that surfaced at Reno and then the RIA auction about a year ago...same seller...