Vickers

P. J. Heck · 02-20-2005, 08:55 PM

Just last week got a Navy and a Vickers. The Vickers appears to be the original finish and lots of it. I have seen the refinished ones which tend to be dullish blue, where this one has a definite sheen. Clean bright bore, #6202. I only vaugely remember discussions about coarse checkering on the Vickers grips, these are really strange and are in equaly excellent condition as the rest of the gun. First Vickers I have ever had. The inside of the grips have what appears to be a British Broadarrow proof. same ones as on my Vickers machine gun and my Lewis machine gun. Both from the same era. The angle of the checkering makes the little diamonds much longer and somewhat bigger than the DWM/Mauser ones. Do these sound like originals or???? I know of the Dutch/Indonesian rebuilds, this gun has no barrel date and no sign of ever having a brass plate. Would the Dutch have put a British Broadarrow on a replacement grip panel???????? Any comment would be appreciated.

Dwight Gruber · 02-21-2005, 01:44 AM

PJ,

Got any pictures?

I'm concerned a bit about your description. I'm not sure that Vickers had a high polish, originally. The British Broad Arrow sounds most suspect, as the guns were delivered to the East Indies without grips and the grips were fashioned there.

Vickers which were issued to officers did not have brass unit mark plates.

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 02-21-2005, 08:19 AM

I agree that the course checkered grips found on some Dutch lugers are Indonesian arsenal (sometime marked GS inside) replacements for the original DWM grips that rotted rapidly in the moisture of the tropics. TH

Ron Wood · 02-21-2005, 09:58 AM

PJ,
Your grips sound very much like the ones on a KOL I sold to Pete Ebbink. Look in the Member Gallery for his album on that piece.

P. J. Heck · 02-21-2005, 10:07 AM

Re; Vickers finish looks like the other slightly worn DWM guns I have here. Others w/barrel dates I have seen have appeared to be dullish or even to the point of glass beaded. No such metal texture here. There is too much grip strap wear, a stain on the bottom of the barrel, and the normal side plate and sharp corners wear from being holstered several times and thinning straw in all the correct places. to lead me to believe this is a refinish. I can send it to either of you for examination........I intend to get Doug Smiths opinion at the OGCA meet next 2 weeks or so. The grip wood is colored like better quality walnut, but is very close grained and seemingly very hard...........If officers gun shad no brass plate, could it have been possible that this gun simply didnt need refinishing, just replaced the grips and let it go at that???????? I have no idea of the guns history, neither did the seller who got it at a Houston gun show many years ago........ Found Petes grips on the Gallery, I feel that the checkering on mine is a bit more exagerated, couldnt be a recheck job as my grooves are too far apart and would soon double on top of a set of diamonds...this pretty much has to be the checking pattern originally used but who did it??????? Just exactly what do the originals look like, DWM or?????? Where is there an illustration in a book???

P. J. Heck · 02-21-2005, 11:44 AM

I tried to correct a bit of the preceeding post but couldnt get to it. Anyway there is no stain on the barrel, that is on a 1915 I was handling this morning also. I think I have solved/deepened the grip mystery. I found a 12 power jewelers work glass set. They show the grips are indeed rechecked as there are old dirty lines depicting a much closer original checking pattern. Some of the lines present are doubled, indicating not so professional a job. Also everything associated w/the outside of the grips seems too clean. I now believe they are walnut. The inside reveals only the Broadarrow proof which is quite a good size, the letter 'o' and what looks like a very small amatuerish depiction of a devils pitchfork (?). There is also two words stamped on the frame just forward of the grip safety where the section connects the mag well with the back strap, both poorly stamped, w/several letters plain and others smudged. About 6 characters.

Vlim · 02-21-2005, 03:00 PM

Hi,

If I look through the Martens & De Vries book, they claim that 'most of the pistols were delivered without grip plates'. And most of the encountered Vickers will have the coarser Java-produced grips that were also used as replacements on DWM-made ones.

It also means that some Vickers were delivered with grips and that a British marking could therefore be expected.

The combination of a good-looking vickers with original grips would mean that this one saw very limited action or left the official circuit very quickly (that is, if everything is in order, of course).

02-20-2005, 08:55 PM	#1
P. J. Heck User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Southeast Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Vickers Just last week got a Navy and a Vickers. The Vickers appears to be the original finish and lots of it. I have seen the refinished ones which tend to be dullish blue, where this one has a definite sheen. Clean bright bore, #6202. I only vaugely remember discussions about coarse checkering on the Vickers grips, these are really strange and are in equaly excellent condition as the rest of the gun. First Vickers I have ever had. The inside of the grips have what appears to be a British Broadarrow proof. same ones as on my Vickers machine gun and my Lewis machine gun. Both from the same era. The angle of the checkering makes the little diamonds much longer and somewhat bigger than the DWM/Mauser ones. Do these sound like originals or???? I know of the Dutch/Indonesian rebuilds, this gun has no barrel date and no sign of ever having a brass plate. Would the Dutch have put a British Broadarrow on a replacement grip panel???????? Any comment would be appreciated. __________________ There are no bad guns!

02-21-2005, 08:19 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	I agree that the course checkered grips found on some Dutch lugers are Indonesian arsenal (sometime marked GS inside) replacements for the original DWM grips that rotted rapidly in the moisture of the tropics. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

02-21-2005, 09:58 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	PJ, Your grips sound very much like the ones on a KOL I sold to Pete Ebbink. Look in the Member Gallery for his album on that piece. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-21-2005, 10:07 AM	#5
P. J. Heck User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Southeast Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Vickers Re; Vickers finish looks like the other slightly worn DWM guns I have here. Others w/barrel dates I have seen have appeared to be dullish or even to the point of glass beaded. No such metal texture here. There is too much grip strap wear, a stain on the bottom of the barrel, and the normal side plate and sharp corners wear from being holstered several times and thinning straw in all the correct places. to lead me to believe this is a refinish. I can send it to either of you for examination........I intend to get Doug Smiths opinion at the OGCA meet next 2 weeks or so. The grip wood is colored like better quality walnut, but is very close grained and seemingly very hard...........If officers gun shad no brass plate, could it have been possible that this gun simply didnt need refinishing, just replaced the grips and let it go at that???????? I have no idea of the guns history, neither did the seller who got it at a Houston gun show many years ago........ Found Petes grips on the Gallery, I feel that the checkering on mine is a bit more exagerated, couldnt be a recheck job as my grooves are too far apart and would soon double on top of a set of diamonds...this pretty much has to be the checking pattern originally used but who did it??????? Just exactly what do the originals look like, DWM or?????? Where is there an illustration in a book??? __________________ There are no bad guns!

02-21-2005, 01:44 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	PJ, Got any pictures? I'm concerned a bit about your description. I'm not sure that Vickers had a high polish, originally. The British Broad Arrow sounds most suspect, as the guns were delivered to the East Indies without grips and the grips were fashioned there. Vickers which were issued to officers did not have brass unit mark plates. --Dwight

02-21-2005, 11:44 AM	#6
P. J. Heck User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Southeast Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Vicers I tried to correct a bit of the preceeding post but couldnt get to it. Anyway there is no stain on the barrel, that is on a 1915 I was handling this morning also. I think I have solved/deepened the grip mystery. I found a 12 power jewelers work glass set. They show the grips are indeed rechecked as there are old dirty lines depicting a much closer original checking pattern. Some of the lines present are doubled, indicating not so professional a job. Also everything associated w/the outside of the grips seems too clean. I now believe they are walnut. The inside reveals only the Broadarrow proof which is quite a good size, the letter 'o' and what looks like a very small amatuerish depiction of a devils pitchfork (?). There is also two words stamped on the frame just forward of the grip safety where the section connects the mag well with the back strap, both poorly stamped, w/several letters plain and others smudged. About 6 characters. __________________ There are no bad guns!

02-21-2005, 03:00 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, If I look through the Martens & De Vries book, they claim that 'most of the pistols were delivered without grip plates'. And most of the encountered Vickers will have the coarser Java-produced grips that were also used as replacements on DWM-made ones. It also means that some Vickers were delivered with grips and that a British marking could therefore be expected. The combination of a good-looking vickers with original grips would mean that this one saw very limited action or left the official circuit very quickly (that is, if everything is in order, of course).