Originality ethics (long)

Mark Twain once said something like, "It is better to be silent and have people think you are ignorant than to open your mouth and remove all doubt", but, notwithstanding this admonition, I will go ahead anyway.


I am somewhat confused as to the actual point where a Luger is no longer "original". I am somewhat familiar with what makes a classic car original, but the rules seem a little different with Lugers. Obviously, if the pistol has mismatched numbers, has been chromed, and has a Mauser toggle and a Erfurt frame, we are approaching non-originality.


However, for example, if I have a genuine black widow with a cracked plastic grip and I replace the grip with a genuine grip from another black widow, is the gun still original?


If I replace the black widow grips with genuine wooden Mauser grips from the same era, is the gun still original?


If I find a 1941 byf with aftermarket grips and magazines and do not know what it had come with it originally, is the gun still original if I replace them with genuine grips (either plastic or wooden) and a fxo magazine?


If I replace the Mauser springs with Wolff springs and a Mauser grip screw with the identical screw manufactured by DWM, is the gun still original?


If I replace a side plate stamped "55" on a gun with a serial number of "2755" with the same part stamped "55" from another gun whose serial number is "2855", is the resulting gun original?


I used the black widow above merely as a hyothetical example; I am less concerned with what makes a byf a "black widow" and more concerned about what the rules are about when you can represent a pistol as original and when you cannot. It also seems to me that non-original pistols, unless the alteration is an obvious one, will eventually get cleansed of their non-originality when they get passed through successive owners who do not realize that the guy who owned the gun in 1973 put a non-original but identical-appearing part into it.


In short, are there generally-accepted rules on originality, and is so, what are they?


Thanks.

[Frank]

This is a hornets nest but a worthwhile issue. First, like collector cars, there are specific qualifiers. Such as:

1. Factory original=100% parts and finish THAT came on item from the factory.

2. Issued or as Used condition= All period (my be police or army rework, will show some wear and use etc... but as captured by the GI or last used by the German.

3. Original parts/period correct= some parts replaced with CORRECT period parts....but done after capture or 1945 ( whereever one draws the line)

4.Post war offical refinish= example the VOPO and Russian Lugers...these are offical respective government reworks..but done post 45.

5. Post war restoration=post war refinish but original in style and look.

There are at least several other specific categories that one can look at but I think that it is most important to really understand what you are looking at and its context.

You question is important but not simple. The pistol used to kill president Lincoln had some wear and damage...and I believe a non-factory original screw somewhere, this may not be finnest example of a Derringer in exsistance but it has been thankfully kept in the historical condition and context that it was recovered at Fords Theatre. If a "collector" had gone in and replaced the screw with a "correct" one and had re-finished the metal and wood to Factory specs....much would have been forever lost. Many weapons were mis-matched by the Germans (esp. the last couple of years in the War) this does not make them trash and non-collectable....I can show you mis-matched Confederate pistols that have brought in excess of $20,000 , so be carefull what you put down!

[Hugh]

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules. As evidenced by former heated discussions on this board, there are differing opinions as to what "original" means. Everyone has his/her own opinion as to what the term encompasses. Let's please let dead Armadillos lie in the road!

[Gene]

The recent posts discussing originality standards have been very interesting, if not sometimes a little perplexing.


A closely related facet to this question is the common practice of assigning percentages - most often to the condition of the blue or straw, but sometimes to "originality" too. Small percentage differences can often mean very large differences in prices.


Of course, such large price differences may be quite justified if the population of a particular variation in one condition may be very different from its population in another, and the all-important collector demand exists!


The problem is when one person's 98% is easily another person's 95%. Even with the same individual, I sometimes have the feeling that it's 98% when selling and 95% when buying!

[Frank]

[Kyrie]

Thatâ??s an excellent post, BCC


â??Factory originalâ?� collectors donâ??t even want unit marked Lugers - the pistol didnâ??t leave the factory with unit markings. They also arenâ??t interested in reworks - VoPo, Finn, double date, etc.


â??As issuedâ?� collectors donâ??t mind (and may actually prefer) unit marked pieces because it can help them trace a part of the pistolâ??s wartime issuance. These folks have no problem with VoPo, et. al., Lugers


And there are the collectors of commercial Lugers. These folks arenâ??t interested in any military Luger - they want commercial pistols


And then there are the collectors of contract Lugers. Collectors of contract Lugers arenâ??t interested in German military or police Lugers. They want Persians, Finns, Siamese, Russian, etc. Lugers.


But what all these different kinds of Luger collectors have in common is a desire for an all original Luger. If they are factory original collectors the Luger has to have all the parts in came with when it left the factory. If they as issued collectors the Luger has to have the parts it had when it was issued. This is what collector mean by the verbal shorthand â??matchingâ?� - is it all original.


If someone other than the factory or the maintenance depot has replaced *any* part, the pistol is no longer original. One of the ways collectors determine if a part has been replaced is by checking the parts numbers. Itâ??s also why collectors tend to have such a strong response to parts swapping to make a pistol look like it is original when it is not. Most collectors have been offered mismatched pistols altered to appear to be matching, and canâ??t help associate anything that makes a pistol look like something it is not with fraud - because they have had thing kind of thing done to them in an attempt to defraud them.


Hope this helps.


Kyrie

[Dok]

This is a sensitive issue Mike T. (refer to the Forum Decorm article in the General Info section) and as long as members can explain in general terms the answer to your question, all is well. What invariably happens is that one person makes a comment from his viewpoint on the subject, and another counters that point with an opposing point, and the scrap is on. So walk softly guys.


Dok

Kyrie,


With due respect, and for the newbees...


I don't think that "Matched" should be equated in any way with "original". I have seen too many "matched" guns that are obviously not original.


Advice to newbee's and the rest of us, seek documentation, and professional advice, if you wish to purchase "collector" grade guns...


Frank Rial

Egad! This discussion for some reason reminds me of the time I took my Illinois-raised 7-year old son to visit a museum in Columbia, South Carolina. He saw the display of butternut Confederate garments and yelled excitedly at the top of his lungs, "Look Dad, here are the uniforms of the bad guys!" The room fell silent and dozens of people were carefully staring away from us in stony approbation. I am getting the same vibes now after bringing up the subject of orginality of Lugers. My intention certainly was not to pick at any wounds which apparently have formed on this topic on this forum, and I apologize if I have done so.


In any event, my question is answered. There apparently are no hard and fast rules on originality. However, as long as the seller is as candid as possible about the weapon, the buyer can make his own decision about whether or not the gun is original enough for his needs.


Incidentally, I feel that BCC makes an excellent point with his Lincoln assassination weapon parable. For example, I think a rusty Luger picked up after the Battle of Stalingrad with an inscription scratched on the grips in German which says "Marshal Zhukov stinks" probably would be a more interesting and worthwhile find than a perfectly preserved NIB (which is not to say that I would turn my nose up at a NIB--far from it).


Finally, I did not intend to denigrate any kind of Luger. I like all Lugers...new ones, old ones, rusty ones, pristine ones, .45 caliber ones, stainless steel ones, etc. Most I cannot afford, and some I like better than others, but all Lugers are worthy, in my opinion, of being included in this forum.

I must say that I agree with Kyries' summation of the issue. This subject may be touchie but it should'nt be. The most important thing is to know why you collect (what draws you to the piece/subject) and second, what it is that you are looking at (ie really "mint" or expertly restored?). Depending on how well you understand the answer to "why you collect", any answer to the second question "what is it" may be just fine. To address another post; the authentication of a piece is an entirely different matter. If I believe that an item (this could be based on any number of reasons) was used in a certian configuration, then I leave it in that condition. If I buy a Luger (for instance) that is all period and matched except the Triple k mag, then I am not "above" replacing it with a mismatched correct type mag....I am trying to fool no one, only reuniting period components to once again have a "of the period" configuration.

This can actually be a fun and worthwhile question to soul search because it forces you to understand the items you seek and why.

[bill m]

Hi Mike,

I see nothing wrong with swapping a mis-matched part of the same manufacture, same serial number style, and same type of blue, in order to return a Luger to the state of all matching. Don't let these guys fool you, as once that part is on there and it is the right style and type, they can not tell if it was put on yesterday or 45 years ago. There is no reason to have a mismatched Luger of collector quality if only the firing pin or holdopen is mismatched and that was probably because it broke or did not function properly. The only fraud that I see here, is that someone sometime tried to pass off mis-matched parts when they should be all matching. No one knows the history of any gun nowdays, whether it be from a vet, dealer, or estate, and therefore, no one can actually say that they have an all original gun. As close as we can get is to have an all matching gun with original finish. You'll have to be the judge on how you see this matter.

[bill m]

Hi,

Interesting opinion about the magazines, but these military Lugers were issued with two matching magazines. If you are the purest on the guns, then there is no difference when it comes to the magazines. You can not put blank wook magazines with a commercail gun, as that was not the original issued magazine and call it all original and matching, can you? If you would not change the mismatched holdopen, then why would you change the mismatched magazine? Why would you add black plastic magazines to a byf if you got it directly from a vet and it had early mismatched nickle magazines? When I say (you), I'm not referring to you bcc, but just everyone in general. This is getting good now, making everyone think a little!

[bill m]

This made me think about holsters. If you want the outfit as it was issued, you can not swap holster, as that is a no-no, and that would be fraud according to some.

[Dok]

it is virtually impossible to tell in some cases, and even the most experienced eye is useless. (recall the story down the index a bit about a Ralph Shattuck oversight)


All you can do is, do your reaseach, check your references, check your sources, and hope for the best.

Bill M, I was just remarking that I see nothing wrong with replacing a post-war replacement mag with a correct TYPE period mag. I personally never would re-number a part or try to other decieve on originality. I believe that many of us own pieces that we do know the history of, however I would agree that this integrity of pedigree becomes harder to maintain as items change hands. You bring up a good point on holsters and my response would be too long to fully post here. I will say in short that I would not change out a holster that came back with a Luger (agree with you, I think)but that also one should realize that with the ISSUE Lugers that were assigned enlisted men (as opposed to officers priviatly owned Lugers), the holsters could be many years off from the Luger date. This is due to the fact that often (usually) these pistols were issued many to many different soldiers and I see no evidence that holsters and pistols were kept/accounted for as a set. The old accepted theory that holsters should be the same year, or perhaps one year off to the pistol, would only hold true for officers lugers in most cases. Of course there is no positive way to distinguish officers pistols.

[Marvin]

BCC,


From the accounts I have read about, the pistols and spare magazines were shipped from the factory together. The holsters were shipped from the factory and put into stock and issued on the FIFO basis, so many times the years could be way off from the pistol. At the issue points, they just pulled a holster from the bins and issued them with no regard to the stamps.


I have also read that some of the earlier Mint holsters were the ones left in the bins at the end of the war and "confiscated" by the forces.


marvin

[Kyrie]

Hi Frank,


No offense taken, and I hope none given


We seem to be on very different wave lengths here. Throughout my time as a collector "matched" has always been a verbal shorthand for "all original". There's even an old saying:


"If it ain't matched, it ain't original. Sometimes it ain't original even if it looks to be matched - so be careful."


Best regards,


Kyrie