Belgian 9mm question

[Roadkill]

The article (link below) references a Belgian 9mm Parabellum in the 1920s:

"9 mm Parabellum pistols were manufactured in Belgium but they were much more expensive and had longer delivery times.",

Any suggestions what it might have been?

http://www.ankkurinvarsi.com/jaeger/PISTOLS1.htm

Thnks

rgg

[lew1]

Interesting. It was not the Hi-Power. I have one Hi-Power that is circa 1929-1930. But it was not regular production.

Perhaps the Md 1922 Browning in 9mm Kurz?

[John Sabato]

It soon become apparent that only Parabellum pistols available from Germany were new 7,65 mm M/20, 9 mm Parabellum pistols were manufactured in Belgium but they were much more expensive and had longer delivery times. Finns accepted the 7,65 mm version, first shipments of 2,000 pistols arrived in July of 1922. Year 1923 another 2,000 pistols were bought and at that time pistol was officially named as "M/23" for Finnish Army.

I think the author is in error... if you look closely at the context above, the entire discussion is about Luger pistols. I think the author's premise that only 7.65MM pistols were available from Germany is correct because of compliance with the Versailles treaty on limitiing production of military weapons. Perhaps, there was a rebarrelling operation in Belgium to get around this??? but I doubt it.

Gerben has an rare book copy of "DWM, the first 50 years" printed in 1939, that may contain some information on foreign military sales during the treaty period that may shed some light on your question... but I don't think that the quote above involves any other pistols besides Lugers...

Just my

[Roadkill]

"9 mm Parabellum pistols were manufactured in Belgium but they were much more expensive and had longer delivery times"


Don't you just love translations? Do they mean "9mm parabellum" pistols as being P08s or another pistol chambered in 9mm parabellum? Given either/both situations, was there a caliber 9mm pistol being produced in Belgium in the 20's as an export military contract gun? Or, were P08s being manufactured in Belgium as military contract pistols for Finland? Either the author is absoultely incorrect, or the Belgians were producing P08s, or there was another 9mm pistol (could have been the FN 1922 as previously mentioned). Are there Belgian proofs on any P08s of this era? The FN 22 would not be a difficult gun to manufacture and its doubtful if the Finnish Army would have accepted the .32 as a service pistol caliber.

rgg

[Vlim]

Hi,

The 1939 history doesn't mention anything about Belgian production. It is a fact (documented) that DWM originally owned a large portion of both FN and Pieper (Bayard brand, later part of FN). During the early 20s, DWM lost their ownership as part of the WW1 damages payments.

It is interesting that FN has been mentioned as a reworking partner who was responsible for reworking Vickers M1906 Dutch lugers after the Dutch took delivery of them. Also, the Belgians had access to a large number of surplus (impounded, etc..) WW1 equipment. Part of that impounded batch was later sold to the Dutch who used a number of LP08s and Navies for the Dutch police and homeguard. There is, however, no documentation known to me that involves FN with that particular sale to the Dutch.

I don't think FN ever produced the P08 (although Pieper did produce certain Luger small parts before WW1), but I certainly believe they reworked them. It would be nice to see some evidence from Finland that would back up this interesting story.

Some background info on DWM's involvement with FN:

Die neue Firma â??Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken" (DWM) �¼bernahm von der Firma Ludw. Loewe & Co. durch Vertrag vom 10.12.1896:

....

Die s�¤mtlichen Aktien der Waffenfabrik Mauser in Oberndorf im Nominalwert von zwei Millionen Mark.

Die Beteiligung an der Waffen- und Maschinenfabrik A.-G. in Budapest in-H�¶he von 300.000 Gulden.

5850 Aktien der Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal bei L�¼ttich im Nominalwert von 2.925.000 frs.

Alle Rechte aus den die Waffenfabrik und Waffenfabrikation betreffenden Lieferungsvertr�¤gen, soweit sie nicht bis zum 31. Dezember 1896 erf�¼llt waren

....

Schon bald nach Abschlu�? des Waffenstillstandes kamen die ersten Befehle der Feindm�¤chte, die vor allem die R�¼ckgabe der im Jahre 1914 aus der Herstaler Fabrik nach Berlin gebrachten Maschinen forderten. Dem mu�?te sofort entsprochen werden. Dazu ist noch zu bemerken, da�? die DWM trotzdem die Aktien der â??Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre" in Herstal an Belgien entsch�¤digungslos abtreten mu�?ten.

(soon after the armistice the first orders of the enemy powers came that before all ordered the return of the machines that were removed from the Herstal (Liege, FN gvv) plant and had been brought to Berlin. This had to be done immediately. It has to be noted that DWM had to hand over their shares of â??Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre" in Herstal as a payment for damages.)

(Which is indeed a bit weird, as DWM actually owned most of the plant, thus most of the machinery).

[George Anderson]

I think they are talking about Hi Powers, the date issue seems to get hazy as the article proceeds and he certainly is discussing 9mm Parabellums and not some "9mm light". The Finns did buy a limited number of HPs. I will see a friend with considerable knowledge of FN this weekend and ask him.

[lew1]

FN supplied approximately 2,400 Hi-Powers, (with shoulder stocks) to the Finnish Air Force in 1940, in the serial number range between 11,000 and 14,000.

These were not specifically manufactured for the Finns as a separate contract, but were taken from pistols, previously made, that were in inventory.


Regular production of the Hi-Power commenced in either late 1933 or 1934 with the "Oval" port Hi-Powers. The "1935" date is when the Belgian military accepted the Hi-Power (which produced the modification of the ejection port from oval in shape to what we see today).

I have a Oval port Hi-Power, serial No. 2, Belgian military accepted, which is possibly one of the pistols initially reviewed by the Belgian military.

I have another Hi-Power, mfg around 1929/1930, but it wasa pre-production example with features that are not found on later examples. This version could not have been the one referred to in the article as only two were known to have been made.

Just remember when JM Browning's patents were registered. Without checking my notes and going from sheer memory this was 1928.

[Heinz]

FN production in this period would have been of the Browning 1903 but that was a 9MM Browning long. The M1903 was the second production blowback-operated pistol, designed by John Browning This design also was manufactured by the Colt Firearms Co of USA as the Colt M1903 pocket pistol, chambered in .32ACP (7.65mm). Both FN and Colt produced this design until 1930s. In Europe, The FN M1903 became a favorite police pistol, and also was adopted by several armies, included Belgian, Dutch, Turkish and Swedish ones, as well as by Imperial Russian police. It was manufactured in Sweden under license at Husqvarna Vapenfabriks from 1917 and until 1942, as the 9mm M/1907. In the USA, the Colt m1903 became popular as a civilian self-defense pistol, and also was issued to the senior army officers and generals as a standard self-defense weapon. FN built slightly less than 60 000 M1903 pistols, plus Husqvarna built another 94 000 pistols.

[Lugerdoc]

Heinz, My first thought were also of the FN03, but if in fact the Finns were interested in 9mm Parabellums in the immediate post WW1 period, it is most probable that they could have set up an assembly program in Belgium, as they did with Vickers for the Dutch. TH

[lew1]

Previously, I mentioned that:

Regular production of the Hi-Power commenced in either late 1933 or 1934 with the "Oval" port Hi-Powers. The "1935" date is when the Belgian military accepted the Hi-Power (which produced the modification of the ejection port from oval in shape to what we see today).

I have a Oval port Hi-Power, serial No. 2, Belgian military accepted, which is possibly one of the pistols initially reviewed by the Belgian military.


I am attaching photos of this Hi-Power.


(Apparently, I can upload only one photo at a time per message, so I will have to post additional photos to show the markings, etc.)

This is the lowest known serial number of a Hi-Power accepted by the Belgian miltary. (If you have Hi-Power accepteed by the Belgian military with a lower serial number, please let me know.)



The Belgian military markings on the left side are a little different than appears on later Hi-Powers accepted by the Belgian miltary.

[lew1]

A different view of the serial number and ejection port.

[lew1]

A close view of the serial number.

[lew1]

Markings on the left side.