Removal of CAI Markings on SOG Lugers

stantheboltactionman · 01-15-2005, 12:10 PM

Hi All,
Is it possible or legal to remove the CAI Importers large billboard on the Lugers currently offered by SOG?

See image from Greggy_D post on P08 SOG LUGERS
Thanks,
Stan

policeluger · 01-15-2005, 12:33 PM

From what I've been told by ATF...I own a gun smith business and re-blue a lot of gun....No you can not remove import marks, at least legally.

Edward Tinker · 01-15-2005, 12:35 PM

Here is their guidebook on importing;
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/feib/guidebook.htm

I would say it is NOT legal to change it.

stantheboltactionman · 01-15-2005, 12:54 PM

Thanks to all who responded...
This is what I did to my Makarov:
1. Wet Stoned the high spots down of the CAI Imprinting
2. reblued to make LESS conspicuous
You can still read the CAI imprinting, Left the new serial# alone.
I just want the lettering to hide a little better not scream out as it does on my SOG Shooter Luger.

Thanks,
Stan

Doug G. · 01-15-2005, 07:12 PM

Stan, while not technically "legal" one would wonder "IF" you did who would know?

I mean really if the gun were ever confiscated where would the ATF start a trace? They cannot contact the manufacturer! The only thing is if they were able to raise the markings from the compacted metal.
While I would not do this as most import marked guns are not really worth the effort.

Navy · 01-15-2005, 07:36 PM

This is analogous to ripping the tags off mattresses. WGAS?

Tom A.

Ron Wood · 01-15-2005, 07:55 PM

As we used to say in Nam...DILLIGAS?!

Navy · 01-15-2005, 07:59 PM

Ron,

NFW, you DGAS.

Tom A

Malcolm P. · 01-17-2005, 11:23 AM

My understanding of the law is that all the requirements as to marking the gun are imposed upon the importer. Once the consumer purchases the gun, they are free to obliterate any markings on the gun EXCEPT for the serial number. There is no law or regulation that I am aware of that forbids removal of any markings other than the serial number. The import markings are basically there to track the firearm from the importer to the FFL holder. Once it is out of the control of the FFL holder, the buyer can remove the markings. Thor, I know, performs this service.

Ron Smith · 01-17-2005, 11:50 AM

Malcolm,
I agree. the import marks are just an import label. Once it's legally in the country, they are no longer required. If ATF were to, for whatever reason want to trace it. They would do so with the serial #. It would'nt make any difference if it was imported 50 yrs. or a week ago.

Ron

policeluger · 01-17-2005, 02:31 PM

Do not confuse ATF with the mattresses police, one does not exist and one does....which one would you rather answer to..

stantheboltactionman · 01-17-2005, 07:27 PM

Well...I don't want to answer to either one.
So, I returned the ugly CAI Marked mismatched duckling to SOG...
Lesson well learned...
Looking to buy from Ralph Shattuck.
C IDGAS!!
Stan

DougT · 01-17-2005, 10:46 PM

Stan, good move! Ralph will do you right--garuanteed. If at all possible, make a date with him and buy the gun in person. A visit with Ralph and seeing his collection/inventory is priceless. Be sure to take your high capacity checkbook, and verify that it is fully loaded before you leave. Ralph will show you guns that you may not be able to live without. Enjoy!
DougT

susan · 01-19-2005, 12:32 AM

fwiw; mattress tags typically say something like; "not to be removed except by consumer." they are intended only to describe the filling material from the original manufacturer, since you cannot view it without damaging the goods. they expect you to remove the tag (the one with only one seam to the binding) once purchased because it makes your sheets fit less smoothly, and anyway, it only applies to the first purchaser of the goods. the other tags can be removed at any time, by anyone.

i only add this because it is an "urban myth" kind of thing that is often misunderstood, mostly because people do not read beyond the "under penalty of law this tag is not to be removed" (next words being; except by the consumer.)

it epitomizes the concept that consumers often do not look carefully at what they are buying Once They Think They Have Supported Their Original Opinions about merchandise. well, i think so, anyway. beacause the history of these tags goes further.....there were, from what i have been told, only a few years of tags that did not carry the "except by original owner" qualifier. so many consumers were over concientious about maintaining the tags on their own goods that they asked the manufacturers to replace the goods if the tags came off, and one thing led to another, and it all ended up in court over who was responsible for replacing a used mattress under warranty if the tag fell off... and claiming the mattress was defective IF the tag fell off. so they got the courts to change the requirement, allowing for consumer removal.

it has been more than 35 years since that change occured. still, it was a big deal back then. point is..... once they see the start of the print they think " i know what this is..." and don't bother to read on.

susan my 2cents on human nature....at the end of a long day, so please forgive my ramblings off the original gun question

John Sabato · 01-19-2005, 09:38 AM

I tend to agree with Susan on this... although I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV...

A lot of the Eastern Block captured Lugers that have found there way into the USA in the last 20 years were import marked on the barrels. So if you you have a shot out barrel? or just one that is rusty or ugly, does that mean that you can't have the barrel replaced because the gun's import mark was put there? I don't think so...

I have a Garand that was imported by an outfit called "Blue Sky" and the mark is on the barrel where it is readable in the gap around the gas housing... It shoots pretty well, but if it didn't, I wouldn't hesitate to replace the barrel witha new one.

I personally think that the import mark is put there specifically for the import process to meet CUSTOMS requirements, and serves no purpose after that... after all, the importer is not the manufacturer...

Just my

Yogurt · 01-19-2005, 10:26 PM

I was wondering about the legality of moving the import marks to a more concealed place on the gun. For instance, removing the original CAI markings and relocating it to the frame, underneath the grips. (Like FGS does.)

John Sabato · 01-21-2005, 08:10 AM

A direct question about the legality of moving the import marks, or removing them, really needs to be addressed to the ATF and/or Customs and Border Protection (CBP)...

ANY VOLUNTEERS?

Dok · 01-21-2005, 09:06 AM

Why is it always 2 cents??? And not 1 cent for information that might be suspect, or 5 cents for information that's highly useful??? Hmmm, maybe we should commission a study....

Dok

John Sabato · 01-21-2005, 10:44 AM

I nominate Dok as chairman of this proposed commission...

(...and Dok, I only have a graphic for $0.02... if you insist on an increase or decrease, that will require chargeable hours for graphics work...and John D. still isn't paying any overtime!)

Dok · 01-21-2005, 11:02 AM

Oh, be still my heart.... who could turn down such a deal... blood, sweat and tears, all for the mere pleasure of doing it??? Where do I sign up?

Dok

01-15-2005, 12:10 PM	#1
stantheboltactionman User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N.E. Coastal South Carolina Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Removal of CAI Markings on SOG Lugers Hi All, Is it possible or legal to remove the CAI Importers large billboard on the Lugers currently offered by SOG? See image from Greggy_D post on P08 SOG LUGERS Thanks, Stan

01-15-2005, 12:54 PM	#4
stantheboltactionman User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N.E. Coastal South Carolina Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to all!! That is what I thought. Thanks to all who responded... This is what I did to my Makarov: 1. Wet Stoned the high spots down of the CAI Imprinting 2. reblued to make LESS conspicuous You can still read the CAI imprinting, Left the new serial# alone. I just want the lettering to hide a little better not scream out as it does on my SOG Shooter Luger. Thanks, Stan

01-15-2005, 07:12 PM	#5
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Stan, while not technically "legal" one would wonder "IF" you did who would know? I mean really if the gun were ever confiscated where would the ATF start a trace? They cannot contact the manufacturer! The only thing is if they were able to raise the markings from the compacted metal. While I would not do this as most import marked guns are not really worth the effort. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

01-15-2005, 07:55 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	As we used to say in Nam...DILLIGAS?! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-17-2005, 11:50 AM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Malcolm, I agree. the import marks are just an import label. Once it's legally in the country, they are no longer required. If ATF were to, for whatever reason want to trace it. They would do so with the serial #. It would'nt make any difference if it was imported 50 yrs. or a week ago. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-15-2005, 12:33 PM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	From what I've been told by ATF...I own a gun smith business and re-blue a lot of gun....No you can not remove import marks, at least legally.

01-15-2005, 12:35 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Here is their guidebook on importing; http://www.atf.gov/firearms/feib/guidebook.htm I would say it is NOT legal to change it.

01-15-2005, 07:36 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	This is analogous to ripping the tags off mattresses. WGAS? Tom A.

01-15-2005, 07:59 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Ron, NFW, you DGAS. Tom A

01-17-2005, 11:23 AM	#9
Malcolm P. User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My understanding of the law is that all the requirements as to marking the gun are imposed upon the importer. Once the consumer purchases the gun, they are free to obliterate any markings on the gun EXCEPT for the serial number. There is no law or regulation that I am aware of that forbids removal of any markings other than the serial number. The import markings are basically there to track the firearm from the importer to the FFL holder. Once it is out of the control of the FFL holder, the buyer can remove the markings. Thor, I know, performs this service.

01-17-2005, 02:31 PM	#11
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Do not confuse ATF with the mattresses police, one does not exist and one does....which one would you rather answer to..

01-17-2005, 07:27 PM	#12
stantheboltactionman User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: N.E. Coastal South Carolina Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well...I don't want to answer to either one. So, I returned the ugly CAI Marked mismatched duckling to SOG... Lesson well learned... Looking to buy from Ralph Shattuck. C IDGAS!! Stan

01-17-2005, 10:46 PM	#13
DougT User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 171 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Stan, good move! Ralph will do you right--garuanteed. If at all possible, make a date with him and buy the gun in person. A visit with Ralph and seeing his collection/inventory is priceless. Be sure to take your high capacity checkbook, and verify that it is fully loaded before you leave. Ralph will show you guns that you may not be able to live without. Enjoy! DougT

01-19-2005, 12:32 AM	#14
susan User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 45 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	fwiw; mattress tags typically say something like; "not to be removed except by consumer." they are intended only to describe the filling material from the original manufacturer, since you cannot view it without damaging the goods. they expect you to remove the tag (the one with only one seam to the binding) once purchased because it makes your sheets fit less smoothly, and anyway, it only applies to the first purchaser of the goods. the other tags can be removed at any time, by anyone. i only add this because it is an "urban myth" kind of thing that is often misunderstood, mostly because people do not read beyond the "under penalty of law this tag is not to be removed" (next words being; except by the consumer.) it epitomizes the concept that consumers often do not look carefully at what they are buying Once They Think They Have Supported Their Original Opinions about merchandise. well, i think so, anyway. beacause the history of these tags goes further.....there were, from what i have been told, only a few years of tags that did not carry the "except by original owner" qualifier. so many consumers were over concientious about maintaining the tags on their own goods that they asked the manufacturers to replace the goods if the tags came off, and one thing led to another, and it all ended up in court over who was responsible for replacing a used mattress under warranty if the tag fell off... and claiming the mattress was defective IF the tag fell off. so they got the courts to change the requirement, allowing for consumer removal. it has been more than 35 years since that change occured. still, it was a big deal back then. point is..... once they see the start of the print they think " i know what this is..." and don't bother to read on. susan my 2cents on human nature....at the end of a long day, so please forgive my ramblings off the original gun question

01-19-2005, 09:38 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I tend to agree with Susan on this... although I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV... A lot of the Eastern Block captured Lugers that have found there way into the USA in the last 20 years were import marked on the barrels. So if you you have a shot out barrel? or just one that is rusty or ugly, does that mean that you can't have the barrel replaced because the gun's import mark was put there? I don't think so... I have a Garand that was imported by an outfit called "Blue Sky" and the mark is on the barrel where it is readable in the gap around the gas housing... It shoots pretty well, but if it didn't, I wouldn't hesitate to replace the barrel witha new one. I personally think that the import mark is put there specifically for the import process to meet CUSTOMS requirements, and serves no purpose after that... after all, the importer is not the manufacturer... Just my __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-19-2005, 10:26 PM	#16
Yogurt User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I was wondering about the legality of moving the import marks to a more concealed place on the gun. For instance, removing the original CAI markings and relocating it to the frame, underneath the grips. (Like FGS does.)

01-21-2005, 08:10 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	A direct question about the legality of moving the import marks, or removing them, really needs to be addressed to the ATF and/or Customs and Border Protection (CBP)... ANY VOLUNTEERS? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-21-2005, 09:06 AM	#18
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Why is it always 2 cents??? And not 1 cent for information that might be suspect, or 5 cents for information that's highly useful??? Hmmm, maybe we should commission a study.... Dok __________________ You can never be too rich; too thin; or too well armed! http://www.centercustomcases.com/

01-21-2005, 10:44 AM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I nominate Dok as chairman of this proposed commission... (...and Dok, I only have a graphic for $0.02... if you insist on an increase or decrease, that will require chargeable hours for graphics work...and John D. still isn't paying any overtime!) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-21-2005, 11:02 AM	#20
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Oh, be still my heart.... who could turn down such a deal... blood, sweat and tears, all for the mere pleasure of doing it??? Where do I sign up? Dok __________________ You can never be too rich; too thin; or too well armed! http://www.centercustomcases.com/