Black Widow Rig

tracyp · 01-09-2005, 01:28 PM

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=6371185

What do you think about this rig up for auction? IMHO I think the grips are repros? Look at the picture showing the front strap and near the side plate. The fitting does not look right.

Here's a picture of the inside of the grips. It looks to me like they were made from originals

Also, holster stitching looks too white.

Tracy

lugercollector · 01-09-2005, 07:59 PM

The gun looks pretty good.....Cannot tell about the grips....The Holster appears never to have had a gun in it ??

John Sabato · 01-10-2005, 11:21 AM

The grips "appear" to be genuine, but I would require much sharper focus photographs and closeups of the "positioning islands" on the back to be sure. The back of the grips have quire a bit more "shine" than I am used to seeing, but that may be because they were wiped down with gun oil before being photographed instead of being mold related. ...despite the fact that there are threaded holes on the insides, I cannot be positive that they are genuine with these photos. If they are not reproductions, they are a REAL close copy of a set of originals... Sorry I can't be more positive for you...

Jerry Burney (lugerholsterrepair) needs to pass judgement on the holster... but it looks almost too good to be true to me... The mags are correct, as is the tool. The barrel has a minimum dimension bore 8.81mm (that's a good thing) and is indicative of the care Mauser used during this production run.

The gun has no suffix under the serial number on the grip frame in front of the trigger guard... must be one of the first production series for 1941...

Also on the bright side, the seller has 9 positive feedbacks, and nothing negative...

Luke · 01-10-2005, 02:00 PM

Tracy -

Are the grips made of black plastic or Bakelite?

I agree with John; they appear to be too shiny for Bakelite. It is possible that they are plastic . . . . cast in molds formed by originals; in which case, if they are good repros, they would have some of the same mold details on the back that the originals have.

By the way, since this Luger does not have a suffix, the black grips could not have been original to the gun; as Mauser didn't supply black grips until late in the 1941 production run. Some collectors have proposed that many of the earlier Mausers could have been retrofit with the black Bakelite grips when the original wooden grips were damaged. Seems like a reasonable hypothesis.

Luke

tracyp · 01-10-2005, 03:38 PM

Luke,

It's a second variation E/135 which would be late 1941. I think the key is the fit.

Now look at the fit along the grip straps. The second pic from my Luger.

tracyp · 01-10-2005, 03:38 PM

Look at the fit below the sideplate. The second pic is one of mine. Look at how much better the fit is.

tracyp · 01-10-2005, 03:52 PM

Here's another pic of mine along the grip straps.

Luke · 01-10-2005, 05:38 PM

Hi Tracy,

Yours looks just like the only known-authentic black grips that I own. I strongly suspect the grips on the Luger in question are repros.

Regards,
Luke

tracyp · 01-10-2005, 05:48 PM

Luke,

I have three and they are all the same. The fix is excellent and the backs are smooth with no bubbles.

Tracy

Leon DeSpain · 01-10-2005, 07:56 PM

Hi tracyp,

Here is a link to pictures of a pair of original "Black Widow" grips.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page112.html

Regards, Leon

pipeman45 · 01-10-2005, 10:46 PM

I just took the BW grips off my 1940 Russian capture pistol. The fit is much better than the ones on the gun in question. Also no bubbles in the finnish. I think the ones in your pic's are repos. I don't think the Russians had any reason to fake the grips on my pistol,because BW's are only an American thing. Also that holster looks too good to be true.

tracyp · 01-10-2005, 10:49 PM

Take a look at this auction http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=6366193

These grips are correct. (I have nothing to do with this auction)

Tracy

tracyp · 01-11-2005, 01:15 AM

Leon,

I love those K date Lugers in your collection. If your ever interested in selling one, keep me in mind.

Tracy

John Sabato · 01-11-2005, 11:05 AM

LEON, Thanks much for the excellet photos (as always) to help new Luger enthusiasts determine the authenticity of "Black Widow" grips... As Luke stated above, your photos show what my grips look like too... and the fit is EXCELLENT as evidenced in this OLD photo of my byf41 in the Old Owner's Corner:

01-09-2005, 01:28 PM	#1
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Black Widow Rig http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=6371185 What do you think about this rig up for auction? IMHO I think the grips are repros? Look at the picture showing the front strap and near the side plate. The fitting does not look right. Here's a picture of the inside of the grips. It looks to me like they were made from originals Also, holster stitching looks too white. Tracy

01-10-2005, 11:21 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The grips "appear" to be genuine, but I would require much sharper focus photographs and closeups of the "positioning islands" on the back to be sure. The back of the grips have quire a bit more "shine" than I am used to seeing, but that may be because they were wiped down with gun oil before being photographed instead of being mold related. ...despite the fact that there are threaded holes on the insides, I cannot be positive that they are genuine with these photos. If they are not reproductions, they are a REAL close copy of a set of originals... Sorry I can't be more positive for you... Jerry Burney (lugerholsterrepair) needs to pass judgement on the holster... but it looks almost too good to be true to me... The mags are correct, as is the tool. The barrel has a minimum dimension bore 8.81mm (that's a good thing) and is indicative of the care Mauser used during this production run. The gun has no suffix under the serial number on the grip frame in front of the trigger guard... must be one of the first production series for 1941... Also on the bright side, the seller has 9 positive feedbacks, and nothing negative... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-10-2005, 02:00 PM	#4
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Tracy - Are the grips made of black plastic or Bakelite? I agree with John; they appear to be too shiny for Bakelite. It is possible that they are plastic . . . . cast in molds formed by originals; in which case, if they are good repros, they would have some of the same mold details on the back that the originals have. By the way, since this Luger does not have a suffix, the black grips could not have been original to the gun; as Mauser didn't supply black grips until late in the 1941 production run. Some collectors have proposed that many of the earlier Mausers could have been retrofit with the black Bakelite grips when the original wooden grips were damaged. Seems like a reasonable hypothesis. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

01-10-2005, 03:38 PM	#5
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Luke, It's a second variation E/135 which would be late 1941. I think the key is the fit. Now look at the fit along the grip straps. The second pic from my Luger. Attached Thumbnails

01-10-2005, 03:38 PM	#6
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Look at the fit below the sideplate. The second pic is one of mine. Look at how much better the fit is. Attached Thumbnails

01-09-2005, 07:59 PM	#2
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	The gun looks pretty good.....Cannot tell about the grips....The Holster appears never to have had a gun in it ??

01-10-2005, 03:52 PM	#7
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Here's another pic of mine along the grip straps.

01-10-2005, 05:38 PM	#8
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Hi Tracy, Yours looks just like the only known-authentic black grips that I own. I strongly suspect the grips on the Luger in question are repros. Regards, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

01-10-2005, 05:48 PM	#9
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Luke, I have three and they are all the same. The fix is excellent and the backs are smooth with no bubbles. Tracy

01-10-2005, 07:56 PM	#10
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Hi tracyp, Here is a link to pictures of a pair of original "Black Widow" grips. http://lmd-militaria.com/page112.html Regards, Leon

01-10-2005, 10:46 PM	#11
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I just took the BW grips off my 1940 Russian capture pistol. The fit is much better than the ones on the gun in question. Also no bubbles in the finnish. I think the ones in your pic's are repos. I don't think the Russians had any reason to fake the grips on my pistol,because BW's are only an American thing. Also that holster looks too good to be true. __________________ Dave

01-10-2005, 10:49 PM	#12
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Take a look at this auction http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temnum=6366193 These grips are correct. (I have nothing to do with this auction) Tracy

01-11-2005, 01:15 AM	#13
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Leon, I love those K date Lugers in your collection. If your ever interested in selling one, keep me in mind. Tracy

01-11-2005, 11:05 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	LEON, Thanks much for the excellet photos (as always) to help new Luger enthusiasts determine the authenticity of "Black Widow" grips... As Luke stated above, your photos show what my grips look like too... and the fit is EXCELLENT as evidenced in this OLD photo of my byf41 in the Old Owner's Corner: __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*