Rare commercial P38?

Cincylance · 12-23-2004, 10:49 AM

I was at a friends house this weekend and we were going through his safe and he was showing me his collection piece by piece. He has some really nice stuff, mostly US. One piece that really caught my eye was a P38.
He said this P38 was commercially made in 1938 by walther and was for export to Sweden (I think.) It has the walther banner on the right side as well as Walther info followed by the calider designation. The grips do not look like wartime grips and more closely resemble the post war grips of the P1. All surfaces were much better finished than my wartime P38 and the fit tolerances between the slide and frame were exceptional. Overall condition was an honest 98% with just the slightest edge wear on the left front edge of the slide and on the front of the barrel.
I know this pistol is valuable and he doesn't want to sell it, but how valuable is the question. Any info and value estimates are appreciated. I'm not trying to buy it and he's not trying to sell it. I'm just curious to it's rarity and value.

Many thanks fellas! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Cincylance

MarkC · 12-24-2004, 05:37 PM

Cincylance,

Sweeden purchased about 1,000 pistols fom Walther as their first commercial contract before the war broke out. The contract was cancelled shortly after the war started. These guns have an "H" prefix next to the serial number and run H1001 to H2065. The pistols are high polish blue and had one matched numbered mag.

The holsters for these guns are very rare. Here is my example. A gun in the condition shown is worth about $2,500.00 a matched mag would be super rare for these pistols, I don't know how much of a premium should be added for that. (I heard that years ago when these guns were imported, the mags were shipped in advance of the guns)

The holster is worth about $350.00 to $500.00.

Mark

Cincylance · 12-29-2004, 11:41 AM

Mark/friends,

Well, I spoke with my friend and told him I made this post. He will probably be joining this website soon. He said his P38 was never imported to Sweden and that it lacks the Swedish import marks. He also said that his holster is not a hardshell holster, but a brown breakaway holster that originally came with these contract P38s. He has been told that Sweden decided after pistols started shipping to use the hardshell holsters instead and that his original soft holster is extremely rare.
His P38's mag has no serial number. He believes his rig to be one that was made for export to Sweden, but was never exported. Maybe it stayed at the Walther factory with an executive employee and was picked up at the end of the war by a GI--who knows how it made it back here.
He has picks to post, so I'll try to get him to join this great site.

Thanks,
Cincylance

Edward Tinker · 12-29-2004, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cincylance
I was at a friends house this weekend and we were going through his safe and he was showing me his collection piece by piece.

Lance, not much better than spending time with another guys/gals collection! I have visited several of the forum members and spent some darn good times listening to them on how they aquired a piece. Yes, that is a nice thing to do.

Ed

MarkC · 12-29-2004, 02:41 PM

Lance,

I respect your comments but your friend is a little shy of the facts, there were no soft shell P.38 holsters when the first Swedish contract was delivered. Soft shell holsters are seen in 1943, although a brown soft shell P.38 holster is rare.

Swedish contract guns have no "Swedish import marks". They are distinguished by the "H" prefix. All of these guns were imported into the USA in the 1960's when guns did not have to be import marked.

The Swedish first contract guns came with one matched mag and were sent to Sweden without holsters.

Mark

LJG · 12-30-2004, 09:43 AM

I am the owner of the Swedish P38 who Cincylance was talking about. I do not know anything about this piece except that the gentleman that I bought it from was the brother of the person who originally brought it back at the end of the war along with 1 other German marked P38 and a Luger and PPk. The old gentleman had gotten these from his brother when he passed away and had held on to them until he really needed money. He was very upset when he had to sell them. The pistol, holster and mag were all together, and other than conjecture on anyone's part they have to stand as just that. I have not seen any written facts on what was marked, sold etc. Can anyone point me to the right documents please? How do I post pictures? I will do so if anyone is interested.
Thanks,
LJG

Pete Ebbink · 12-30-2004, 10:47 AM

Hi Larry,

There is a tutorial on photo posting in the Site Help section. File limit on jpges is 200K each.

If you cannot figure it out, send them to me and I will post for you...

pebbink@pacbell.net

Regards,

Pete...

MarkC · 12-31-2004, 04:16 PM

LJG,

I finally had a chance to put my finger on Whittington Volume III, on page 58 is a picture of a P38 soft or breakaway holster dated 1943. Col. Whittington goes on the say, "Although not officially adopted until 1944, limited manufacture of the breakaway commenced in 1943".

Warren Buxton in Volume One on page 76 of the "The P.38 Pistol" states, "It is generally thought that the H was meant to denote just the Swedish contract pistols, as opposed to the regular commercial guns." He also states on page 76, "These weapons were produced from early 1940 up to April of that year".

Since the guns were made in 1940 and soft shell or breakaway holsters not even produced until 1943, it is impossible for a Swedish first contract gun to have a breakaway holster as issued with the gun.

Mark

LJG · 01-02-2005, 07:22 PM

Mark,

Thank you, that's the type of information I've been hoping for. I have talked to others and always get their opinion but nothing in print.

LJG

guy sajer · 01-02-2005, 08:11 PM

How did it get identified as a Swedish model ?
Serial number would help . Proof marks ?

MarkC · 01-03-2005, 06:19 PM

LJG,

I sure would like to see some pics of the gun and holster, is the holster marked P.38?

What are the markings on the mag, perhaps I can help you identify it.

Mark

LJG · 01-12-2005, 05:51 PM

Mark,

Can I just email you some pictures instead of trying to post?

LJG

galaske@3z.net

MarkC · 01-12-2005, 05:58 PM

LJG,

Sure, send them to mark@p38guns.com. If you keep the files under 200k it would be appreciated since I have a dial up at home.

Mark

Lugerdoc · 01-13-2005, 10:36 AM

LJG, As has been mentioned above, many of these Walther HPs were sold commerically and some were even WaAed on the right slide and accepted by the German military along with the military marked 480s and AC40s. TH

LJG · 01-19-2005, 10:09 PM

This on does not have and WaA stamps on it. Go to this site and pictures P1-P6 are of the HP38. If anyone wants to see more I will take them and email to you.
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1177059

MarkC · 01-20-2005, 09:22 AM

LJG,

I don't think that is a P.38 holster at all, I am not an expert on holsters like some of the other guys on the forum but because of the oversized mag pouch it might be for a Browning HP. The brown color would be correct for this type of holster as well.

Mark

12-23-2004, 10:49 AM	#1
Cincylance User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Rare commercial P38? I was at a friends house this weekend and we were going through his safe and he was showing me his collection piece by piece. He has some really nice stuff, mostly US. One piece that really caught my eye was a P38. He said this P38 was commercially made in 1938 by walther and was for export to Sweden (I think.) It has the walther banner on the right side as well as Walther info followed by the calider designation. The grips do not look like wartime grips and more closely resemble the post war grips of the P1. All surfaces were much better finished than my wartime P38 and the fit tolerances between the slide and frame were exceptional. Overall condition was an honest 98% with just the slightest edge wear on the left front edge of the slide and on the front of the barrel. I know this pistol is valuable and he doesn't want to sell it, but how valuable is the question. Any info and value estimates are appreciated. I'm not trying to buy it and he's not trying to sell it. I'm just curious to it's rarity and value. Many thanks fellas! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Cincylance __________________ Cincylance cincylance@fuse.net (home) lance_langdon@lpkdesign.com (work)

12-29-2004, 11:41 AM	#3
Cincylance User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mark/friends, Well, I spoke with my friend and told him I made this post. He will probably be joining this website soon. He said his P38 was never imported to Sweden and that it lacks the Swedish import marks. He also said that his holster is not a hardshell holster, but a brown breakaway holster that originally came with these contract P38s. He has been told that Sweden decided after pistols started shipping to use the hardshell holsters instead and that his original soft holster is extremely rare. His P38's mag has no serial number. He believes his rig to be one that was made for export to Sweden, but was never exported. Maybe it stayed at the Walther factory with an executive employee and was picked up at the end of the war by a GI--who knows how it made it back here. He has picks to post, so I'll try to get him to join this great site. Thanks, Cincylance __________________ Cincylance cincylance@fuse.net (home) lance_langdon@lpkdesign.com (work)

12-29-2004, 02:41 PM	#5
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Lance, I respect your comments but your friend is a little shy of the facts, there were no soft shell P.38 holsters when the first Swedish contract was delivered. Soft shell holsters are seen in 1943, although a brown soft shell P.38 holster is rare. Swedish contract guns have no "Swedish import marks". They are distinguished by the "H" prefix. All of these guns were imported into the USA in the 1960's when guns did not have to be import marked. The Swedish first contract guns came with one matched mag and were sent to Sweden without holsters. Mark Last edited by MarkC; 12-29-2004 at 03:06 PM.

12-30-2004, 10:47 AM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Photo Posting... Hi Larry, There is a tutorial on photo posting in the Site Help section. File limit on jpges is 200K each. If you cannot figure it out, send them to me and I will post for you... pebbink@pacbell.net Regards, Pete...

01-02-2005, 08:11 PM	#10
guy sajer User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 66 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How did it get identified as a Swedish model ? Serial number would help . Proof marks ? __________________ Mitch

12-24-2004, 05:37 PM	#2
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Cincylance, Sweeden purchased about 1,000 pistols fom Walther as their first commercial contract before the war broke out. The contract was cancelled shortly after the war started. These guns have an "H" prefix next to the serial number and run H1001 to H2065. The pistols are high polish blue and had one matched numbered mag. The holsters for these guns are very rare. Here is my example. A gun in the condition shown is worth about $2,500.00 a matched mag would be super rare for these pistols, I don't know how much of a premium should be added for that. (I heard that years ago when these guns were imported, the mags were shipped in advance of the guns) The holster is worth about $350.00 to $500.00. Mark

12-30-2004, 09:43 AM	#6
LJG New User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southwest Ohio Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am the owner of the Swedish P38 who Cincylance was talking about. I do not know anything about this piece except that the gentleman that I bought it from was the brother of the person who originally brought it back at the end of the war along with 1 other German marked P38 and a Luger and PPk. The old gentleman had gotten these from his brother when he passed away and had held on to them until he really needed money. He was very upset when he had to sell them. The pistol, holster and mag were all together, and other than conjecture on anyone's part they have to stand as just that. I have not seen any written facts on what was marked, sold etc. Can anyone point me to the right documents please? How do I post pictures? I will do so if anyone is interested. Thanks, LJG

12-31-2004, 04:16 PM	#8
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	LJG, I finally had a chance to put my finger on Whittington Volume III, on page 58 is a picture of a P38 soft or breakaway holster dated 1943. Col. Whittington goes on the say, "Although not officially adopted until 1944, limited manufacture of the breakaway commenced in 1943". Warren Buxton in Volume One on page 76 of the "The P.38 Pistol" states, "It is generally thought that the H was meant to denote just the Swedish contract pistols, as opposed to the regular commercial guns." He also states on page 76, "These weapons were produced from early 1940 up to April of that year". Since the guns were made in 1940 and soft shell or breakaway holsters not even produced until 1943, it is impossible for a Swedish first contract gun to have a breakaway holster as issued with the gun. Mark

01-02-2005, 07:22 PM	#9
LJG New User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southwest Ohio Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mark, Thank you, that's the type of information I've been hoping for. I have talked to others and always get their opinion but nothing in print. LJG

01-03-2005, 06:19 PM	#11
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	LJG, I sure would like to see some pics of the gun and holster, is the holster marked P.38? What are the markings on the mag, perhaps I can help you identify it. Mark

01-12-2005, 05:51 PM	#12
LJG New User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southwest Ohio Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mark, Can I just email you some pictures instead of trying to post? LJG galaske@3z.net

01-12-2005, 05:58 PM	#13
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	LJG, Sure, send them to mark@p38guns.com. If you keep the files under 200k it would be appreciated since I have a dial up at home. Mark

01-13-2005, 10:36 AM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	LJG, As has been mentioned above, many of these Walther HPs were sold commerically and some were even WaAed on the right slide and accepted by the German military along with the military marked 480s and AC40s. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-19-2005, 10:09 PM	#15
LJG New User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southwest Ohio Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This on does not have and WaA stamps on it. Go to this site and pictures P1-P6 are of the HP38. If anyone wants to see more I will take them and email to you. http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1177059

01-20-2005, 09:22 AM	#16
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	LJG, I don't think that is a P.38 holster at all, I am not an expert on holsters like some of the other guys on the forum but because of the oversized mag pouch it might be for a Browning HP. The brown color would be correct for this type of holster as well. Mark