The price of fakery :-(

[Kyrie]

Hi Folks,


Hereâ??s an example of the danger to novice collectors of a firearm that looks like something it is not:


http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=1456035


The seller describes this as,


â??PRE WAR VINTAGE MAUSER BROOMHANDLE CARBINE,HAS 16 INCH BARREL, DETACHABLE LOWER HALF WITH STOCK AND METAL,HAS MAUSER PROOF ON ONE SIDE,WORDING MAUSER OBERNDORF AN NECKAR ON OTHER.HAS 4 DIGIT SERIAL NUMBER STAMPED ON LOWER FRAME AND ON STOCK METAL,GUN RETAINS ABOUT 98% FINISH,CAME FROM OLD COLLECTION,ORIGINAL OWNER SAID HE HAD IT RESTORED IN THE 60S,10 SHOT INTERNAL MAG,30 MAUSER CALIBER,BORE NICE,VERY UNIQUE GUN,FFL OR CR LICENSE ONLY,BUYER PAYS SHIPPING.â?�


In truth this firearm was made up in the Peoplesâ?? Republic of China in the 1980â??s, using some original Mauser C96 parts, and sold by Navy Arms for $350, NIB. Its present value is perhaps $300 - $400. The reserve on it was $450, the current bid on it is $850, and the auction still has four days to run. Somebody is going to get soaked on this one.


Best regards,


Kyrie





Fake C96 carbine

Kyrie, I agree that the seller's desription of this repro carbine is spurious at best. But I would never equate this to replacing a part on a pistol with an ORIGINALLY FACTORY NUMBERED matching part of the same era and correct die style and placement (commerical vs military, Mauser vs DWM or others that require a proofed part, Mauser 1934&5 narrow aspect dies vs later, etc). In other words, if the replacement part is not exactly right, why bother. Worse yet, if the part is renumbered to match, this is fakery.

[Dok]

what's your thoughts on alerting him?

[Kyrie]

Hi Tom,


Alas, there is very little difference :-(


What you are suggesting is not â??... replacing a part on a pistol with an ORIGINALLY FACTORY NUMBERED matching part ...â?� at all. It is replacing one obviously mismatched part with another mismatched part - that only appears to match because it came from a pistol with the same last two digits in its serial number.


It doesnâ??t matter whether the number on the swapped part was put there by the factory or the fellow doing the swapping. Itâ??s still not original to the pistol, and its only purpose is to make the pistol appear to be matching when it is not. In short, a fake. This is no different from touching up the blue or applying a spurious Deathâ??s Head. All of these things donâ??t make the pistol original; they just lay a trap for future buyers.


I understand you disagree and thatâ??s fine - you are entitled to your views. But I think new collectors need to hear both sides of this before making a choice as to what they will do themselves.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Dok,


I've alerted the seller.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Dok]

What about the poor BUYER????

[BILL]

Caution, my dear friends! You can't legally throw the word "Fakery, Fake, Fraud, or Faker" out there without possible litigation coming your way. I agree that the advertised pistol is misleading at best. I have, however, seen bogus junk purported to be something that it is not and also a disclaimer that if anyone notified the potential seller that it was not as advertised there would be legal action taken. Crazy at it seems, this is not uncommon. Wording is everything in these cases. You might be better off if you don't charge your viewpoint with 'hot-button' words. Basically, a cautionary note can be stated without an accusation but "fake" or "fraud" is too heavy (especially when we are talking to/about our own valued forum members here).

[Johnny Peppers]

If he is shallow enough to think that he is getting an original Mauser Carbine for $850, he won't begin to understand your caution, or much less, care.

[Big Norm]

Kyrie, you are 100% correct. You did the right thing. Nice going. But there really is not anything you can do to protect the poor buyer. I mentioned before that I was at the OGCA show recently and a guy was trying to sell an artillery luger that he had engraved a naval unit marking on the rear strap. He had deliberatly had it engraved there so that he could up the price of a nice looking artillery to (I think $2200 w/o matchimg mag). Everybody that I talked to that knew anything about lugers already knew what this guy had done. In a way, he was the talk of the show. We were all disgusted. A few told him off. But what he did was not illegal so we could do nothing to help stop some new guy from buying the gun. Plenty of people told me so that I could be aware of the fakery and I thank them.


What you did is the beauty of this forum. Older, more experienced collectors have to help new people who are coming in. But we have to be carful that we do it without scaring them off. Remember, we too made out 'mistakes'.


It comes to my pea sized brain that in two of the most popular luger books (Jan Stills and Gibson_ there was a discription of luger Kreighoff P codes with side inscription. In one of them they described the correct inscription and also showed a faked inscription. In the other book, there was a picture of a Ralph Shattuck P code with side inscription. Lo and behold Ralphs gun had a fake inscription. This is not to put down a great guy like Ralph because I do like him and his wife and respect his experience. It is only to illustrate that even good, knowlegable collectors make mistakes.

Big Norm

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


There is no legal penalty for expressing an opinion. To be actionable the offended party has to be able to demonstrate real damages and intent to cause damage. Back when Cole Distributors was selling the questionable â??Naziâ?� Star Model B pistols Gary Cole threatened me with legal action for asking questions. The only effect his threats had one me was they lowered my opinion of him.


An honest man, with no evil intent, may voice any honestly held opinion on the authenticity, or lack of same, on any firearm offered for sale. Moreover, I feel an honest man is sometimes compelled to voice such an opinion. If anyone decides to sue me as a result, and can find an attorney foolish enough to take the case, Iâ??ll accommodate him.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[BILL]

Kyrie, There was an "Original Nambu Lanyard" offered on eBay (and you will probably see it there occasionally, since the guy has a load of them) that was in no way anything from WWII or even close to Japanese. He is a big time dealer in Militaria. He was sent so many emails (and so were his potential victims) that he actually DID hire an attorney to seek lost sales revenue (identifying anyone who emailed him and his bidders as to the fact that the items were not authentic). I don't know how he fared (hopefully not well) but I only point this out as an instance that does have a precedent. Opinions are good since we all have them and we should not be afraid to express them. The intent of my previous post in this thread is to hopefully clarify the difference in expressing opinion vs. accusation of fraudulent behavior. (NB: I am not a lawyer nor have I ever been a lawyer)

[Aaron]

I am in full agreement with all of you as to changing or altering the appearance of a weapon so as to elicit a higher price. I am such a purist that I even resent touching up tiny spots via various bluing techniques. I remember some years ago, back in the sixties, I was heavily into Lugers at gun shows, usually taking a table so that I could acquire better pieces for my collection. An elderly, distinguished gentleman approached my table and laid before me a polished steel sheet about a foot square. On that sheet were dozens of stamped imprints of almost every conceivable Luger and Walther marking! These were of excellent quality, and he offered to mark any of my guns in any manner I wished. I remember among his samples were Kriegsmarine, Reich Ministry, Death Heads, numerals, letters, proofmarks (both military and Commercial), Stoeger, and almost anything you could think of. Of course, I didn't do any business with him, but since that day I have alway wondered how many spurious pieces reside in collections due to his efforts. No matter how experienced you are, I caution you to exercise extreme caution when dealing with any unusual or collectible piece!

[Dok]

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


I understand, and do truly appreciate, your concern. But there is really nothing to worry about here.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

BIG Norm,

I don't know if the guy with the artillery was a dealer or not, but more than one big time dealer has been thrown out of the OGCA for having fake pistols for sale.

Most ads on the internet that are intended to snare an unwary buyer seem worded to not explicitly "lie" but merely leave spurious impressions. "came out of an old collection (define old for me--and then again, this item is new but was in an old collection if you consider most of the items)" and "owner said he had it refinished in the 60's (and as I am the owner I know I said it--even tho it is total bull)". Nothing stated here is a lie but only hints at a provenance that is not accurate. Hence, no clear fraud. I believe the fraud statutes require making false or misleading statements with the intent to defraud. A small time crook doesn't stand much chance of being taken to court.


As far as stating an opinion to someone that you think something is X instead of Y as implied by the seller, you are perfectly safe to do so. Even if you flatly state something is faked, it would be very expensive and very difficult to prove any luger part is original to a gun. No small time crook will bother suing you for that. At most, he might ask an attorney to copy a letter to all the folks questioning his description. That would cost him about $300 says my attorney and so he will probably opt to simply imply bluff threats by email or in his ads. In the balance, you have the right to free speech and if you don't lie with malicious intent to harm someone's reputation or to defraud monetarily, you need not worry. That does not apply if you make statements about rich folk, they can clobber you regardless.