Unscientific, Biased and Fun Testing

AGE · 07-20-2004, 03:11 PM

There haven't been too many shooting topics submitted lately so this old shooter decided to work one up today.

Some generous, wealthy (and evidently dumb) shooter left a couple of B-34 silhouette (if the spelling is right) targets at the range recently. I carefully took them down for future use. Today was the day. These are evidently half scale targets about 11" wide with a 3" wide head. I set one up at about 20 feet today. I also had a small sighter bullseye mounted near the bottom of the target frame.

I decided to test a Luger, a 1911 and a Colt SAA under "combat" conditions. I don't do combat practice (I'm an old bullseye shooter) and I don't carry any of these guns (I carry a S&W 3914 or a Colt Mustang), but these three heavyweights are really my favorites that I do shoot a lot. Also, I don't have holsters for the Luger or SAA.

Anyway, not to be deterred by these trivial facts, I continued onward. I decided to begin my one shot tests with each gun at my side in my strong hand in safe condition (no miserable Luger holster to cloud the issue). The Luger and 1911 both had the chamber loaded and safety on and the SAA had the hammer down on an empty chamber.

Luger tests:

The Luger is a '36 matched reblued Mauser shooter with grips reworked by Hugh Clark, polished sear and striker mating surfaces, and the front sight drifted over to sight it in with Wall-Mart Winchester ammo. I started warming up with the Luger (to refresh my trigger and sight memory) by firing a magazine sighting at the center of the sighter. Got a 1" group perfectly centered. I then shot a magazine applying the safety before each shot. To have any speed at all I had to use my free hand to release the safety. Just imagine the speed if I had to work the toggle before the shot.

Well now for the one shot (scientific?) speed test without a timer. I raised the gun, popped off the safety and shot an 8 at 3 o'clock about 3" from the center of the target in "about" 1-2 seconds. How is that for precision time measurement? Next I chambered one round, raised the gun at the target, closed my eyes and fired. I hit the paper at 10 o'clock about 6" from the center. Scared heck out of the target, but missed it clean. Of course this would have been a fair shoulder hit on a full size target.

1911 tests:

The test gun is a bone stock WWII GI gun with a long trigger (I can't stand the late model short triggers). Again, I warmed up with a magazine of hardball ammo into another 1" group in the sighter (this finished off the sighter). I shot another magazine engaging and releasing the safety before each round. The safety was easily released with the thumb of my shooting hand.

Repeating the rapid (?) speed test with the gun initially at my side gave a 7 at 9 o'clock in "about" 1 second which would have been a decent chest hit on a full sized target. The single shot eyes closed test gave a 6 o'clock hit at the edge of the 7 ring right through the target's stomach. Again, this would have been a pretty good hit with a full sized target.

SAA tests:

The gun used is a genuine Colt 1971 Arizona Centennial in .45 LC. Very purty gold, blue and pearl. Anyway, also dirt cheap a few years ago.

The warm up cylinder gave a somewhat disappointing 2" group. Then a practice run cocking and firing each shot fairly quickly. The gun is absolutely (well almost) stock with only a Pachmeyer spacer under the hammer spring to lighten the trigger pull a little. Cocks and shoots very easily.

The one shot "speed" test gave a dead center hit in the middle of the X zone in about 1 second. The eyes closed test gave a 9 at 9 o'clock just outside the 10 zone. No wonder Matt Dillon always won the shootout at the beginning of each Gunsmoke episode and Pat Garrat got Billy the Kid in the dark.

Conclusions:

Born 100 years too late.

Too much time on my hands.

Need a CCW holster for the SAA.

I wonder if Wilson or Brown can fix my SAA up with a hicap magazine or belt feed like John Wayne.

Life is great.

policeluger · 07-20-2004, 03:31 PM

1" groups are no problem, then I shoot the second round, and gone is my 1" group!

AGE · 07-20-2004, 03:44 PM

1" groups at 20 feet are nothing special in the bullseye arena. This Luger will do 1.5" at 25 yards regularly.

Roadkill · 07-20-2004, 04:58 PM

Great shooting, Age, Sunday AM I took out a 1944 Remington 1911A1, a 1918 Erfurt, a 1937 S42, an AC 44 P38, a 1944 High Power, a 1943 Radom, a Nazi Browning 1922, a 1950 Tokarev, and for non antiques a Beretta 96 (.40) and a .32 1974 Walther PP. The tightest groups was from the Erfurt using Finnish 1962 milsurp fmj, the worst was the S42. Got a feeling it will be going on down the line before too long. Haven't given up on it yet. I have been reworking the trigger on the BHP and have got the shots from a 20" spread to decent 2" consistent groups. Commom sense tells me to leave it alone but you know how it is when you get bored. The 1911A1 is a straight military model and is as good a shooter as they come. I fired the best consistent groups overall with it. Best trigger is the Radom. If I shoot it after the BHP the first two shots are always unexpected. The P38 is also a good shooter but the rear sight doesn't work well for me. I shot the Tokarev using 1959 East German SP fmj, got the ammo in a local shop for $5.00 for 70 rounds, that gun is by no means to be dismissed as ineffective. I got the Beretta as a non antique reality gun to supplement my AR 15, got it in .40 cause I've never had that caliber before. It would be my best one if I'd quit messing with the others (like the S42)and learn how to shoot it. I'm shooting molybedenum/teflon coated 160g bullets in it (http://www.masterblastersbullets.com/index.html)
and tried them in the 9mms, worked well so I'm going to switch to them for 9mm and .45 too. Cheap as lead but minimal lead buildup.
rk

AGE · 07-20-2004, 10:40 PM

RK,

You have more energy than I do since you evidently took 100 pounds or so of guns to the range. I usually take only 3 or 4 and put 50-100 rounds through each one. I probably shoot my 9 mm Colt 1911 the most, gotta do more rapid fire practice.

My '36 Luger does real well, put 50 rounds into a 3" group (with 2 flyers out of the black) at 25 yards after the above single shot tests. I put away the WWII 1911 but shot the 9 mm 1911 another 50 rounds, trying for more speed.

I really like to shoot .45 1911s (I have several great worked over guns), but reloading is getting to be a pain and 9 mm Winchester is so cheap I shoot a lot of that lately. I do reload nearly all of my .45 ACP and all of my .45 LC.

Edward Tinker · 07-21-2004, 12:08 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Roadkill:
a 1944 High Power, a 1943 Radom, a 1950 Tokarev, and for non antiques a Beretta 96 (.40)<hr /></blockquote>Yes, these guns shoot well, because RK was kind enough to let me shoot them when I was down there! And next time, I owe dinner or at least be gentleman enough to do the dishes for your wonderful wife!

Ed

Roadkill · 07-21-2004, 08:06 AM

Age, I like the .45 best of all, am thinking about getting one of the new Springfield 1911 military guns for a shooter and leave the Remington on the wall, but as long as I reload carefully and keep it well taken care of it will last longer than I will. I still have to decide what to do with the S42, options are to send it on down the line or send it to Ted, he can restore it for what I'd pay for another good gun, and the 1918 Erfurt he restored for me is absoultely flawless in appearance and function.

Anytime Ed, anytime. IIRC though it wasn't my wife who did the dishes. I also enjoyed the visit and the great steak dinner when I was up there earlier this year.

Jim E, are you still out there? Your email isn't working.

rk

AGE · 07-22-2004, 11:36 PM

RK,

If you are looking for another 1911 .45 take a good look at Kimbers and Para Ords. also. They both make a bunch of different models and I have one of each. I like them both but really like my old reworked guns better.

I don't know much about the Springfields but my son had a poor one a few years back that he traded off. The recent ones are made in Argentina. All of my guns are US made, except for my 2 Lugers and the Para (big, accurate and reliable gun with lots of ammo in the hicap mag.).

G.T. · 07-23-2004, 12:00 AM

RK! email me again about this errant P.08 shooter! Maybe we can work out a trade! best to you, til...lat'r...GT

07-20-2004, 03:11 PM	#1
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unscientific, Biased and Fun Testing There haven't been too many shooting topics submitted lately so this old shooter decided to work one up today. Some generous, wealthy (and evidently dumb) shooter left a couple of B-34 silhouette (if the spelling is right) targets at the range recently. I carefully took them down for future use. Today was the day. These are evidently half scale targets about 11" wide with a 3" wide head. I set one up at about 20 feet today. I also had a small sighter bullseye mounted near the bottom of the target frame. I decided to test a Luger, a 1911 and a Colt SAA under "combat" conditions. I don't do combat practice (I'm an old bullseye shooter) and I don't carry any of these guns (I carry a S&W 3914 or a Colt Mustang), but these three heavyweights are really my favorites that I do shoot a lot. Also, I don't have holsters for the Luger or SAA. Anyway, not to be deterred by these trivial facts, I continued onward. I decided to begin my one shot tests with each gun at my side in my strong hand in safe condition (no miserable Luger holster to cloud the issue). The Luger and 1911 both had the chamber loaded and safety on and the SAA had the hammer down on an empty chamber. Luger tests: The Luger is a '36 matched reblued Mauser shooter with grips reworked by Hugh Clark, polished sear and striker mating surfaces, and the front sight drifted over to sight it in with Wall-Mart Winchester ammo. I started warming up with the Luger (to refresh my trigger and sight memory) by firing a magazine sighting at the center of the sighter. Got a 1" group perfectly centered. I then shot a magazine applying the safety before each shot. To have any speed at all I had to use my free hand to release the safety. Just imagine the speed if I had to work the toggle before the shot. Well now for the one shot (scientific?) speed test without a timer. I raised the gun, popped off the safety and shot an 8 at 3 o'clock about 3" from the center of the target in "about" 1-2 seconds. How is that for precision time measurement? Next I chambered one round, raised the gun at the target, closed my eyes and fired. I hit the paper at 10 o'clock about 6" from the center. Scared heck out of the target, but missed it clean. Of course this would have been a fair shoulder hit on a full size target. 1911 tests: The test gun is a bone stock WWII GI gun with a long trigger (I can't stand the late model short triggers). Again, I warmed up with a magazine of hardball ammo into another 1" group in the sighter (this finished off the sighter). I shot another magazine engaging and releasing the safety before each round. The safety was easily released with the thumb of my shooting hand. Repeating the rapid (?) speed test with the gun initially at my side gave a 7 at 9 o'clock in "about" 1 second which would have been a decent chest hit on a full sized target. The single shot eyes closed test gave a 6 o'clock hit at the edge of the 7 ring right through the target's stomach. Again, this would have been a pretty good hit with a full sized target. SAA tests: The gun used is a genuine Colt 1971 Arizona Centennial in .45 LC. Very purty gold, blue and pearl. Anyway, also dirt cheap a few years ago. The warm up cylinder gave a somewhat disappointing 2" group. Then a practice run cocking and firing each shot fairly quickly. The gun is absolutely (well almost) stock with only a Pachmeyer spacer under the hammer spring to lighten the trigger pull a little. Cocks and shoots very easily. The one shot "speed" test gave a dead center hit in the middle of the X zone in about 1 second. The eyes closed test gave a 9 at 9 o'clock just outside the 10 zone. No wonder Matt Dillon always won the shootout at the beginning of each Gunsmoke episode and Pat Garrat got Billy the Kid in the dark. Conclusions: Born 100 years too late. Too much time on my hands. Need a CCW holster for the SAA. I wonder if Wilson or Brown can fix my SAA up with a hicap magazine or belt feed like John Wayne. Life is great. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-20-2004, 03:44 PM	#3
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1" groups at 20 feet are nothing special in the bullseye arena. This Luger will do 1.5" at 25 yards regularly. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-20-2004, 10:40 PM	#5
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	RK, You have more energy than I do since you evidently took 100 pounds or so of guns to the range. I usually take only 3 or 4 and put 50-100 rounds through each one. I probably shoot my 9 mm Colt 1911 the most, gotta do more rapid fire practice. My '36 Luger does real well, put 50 rounds into a 3" group (with 2 flyers out of the black) at 25 yards after the above single shot tests. I put away the WWII 1911 but shot the 9 mm 1911 another 50 rounds, trying for more speed. I really like to shoot .45 1911s (I have several great worked over guns), but reloading is getting to be a pain and 9 mm Winchester is so cheap I shoot a lot of that lately. I do reload nearly all of my .45 ACP and all of my .45 LC. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-21-2004, 12:08 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Roadkill: <strong>a 1944 High Power, a 1943 Radom, a 1950 Tokarev, and for non antiques a Beretta 96 (.40)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Yes, these guns shoot well, because RK was kind enough to let me shoot them when I was down there! And next time, I owe dinner or at least be gentleman enough to do the dishes for your wonderful wife! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-22-2004, 11:36 PM	#8
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	RK, If you are looking for another 1911 .45 take a good look at Kimbers and Para Ords. also. They both make a bunch of different models and I have one of each. I like them both but really like my old reworked guns better. I don't know much about the Springfields but my son had a poor one a few years back that he traded off. The recent ones are made in Argentina. All of my guns are US made, except for my 2 Lugers and the Para (big, accurate and reliable gun with lots of ammo in the hicap mag.). __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-20-2004, 03:31 PM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	1" groups are no problem, then I shoot the second round, and gone is my 1" group!

07-20-2004, 04:58 PM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Great shooting, Age, Sunday AM I took out a 1944 Remington 1911A1, a 1918 Erfurt, a 1937 S42, an AC 44 P38, a 1944 High Power, a 1943 Radom, a Nazi Browning 1922, a 1950 Tokarev, and for non antiques a Beretta 96 (.40) and a .32 1974 Walther PP. The tightest groups was from the Erfurt using Finnish 1962 milsurp fmj, the worst was the S42. Got a feeling it will be going on down the line before too long. Haven't given up on it yet. I have been reworking the trigger on the BHP and have got the shots from a 20" spread to decent 2" consistent groups. Commom sense tells me to leave it alone but you know how it is when you get bored. The 1911A1 is a straight military model and is as good a shooter as they come. I fired the best consistent groups overall with it. Best trigger is the Radom. If I shoot it after the BHP the first two shots are always unexpected. The P38 is also a good shooter but the rear sight doesn't work well for me. I shot the Tokarev using 1959 East German SP fmj, got the ammo in a local shop for $5.00 for 70 rounds, that gun is by no means to be dismissed as ineffective. I got the Beretta as a non antique reality gun to supplement my AR 15, got it in .40 cause I've never had that caliber before. It would be my best one if I'd quit messing with the others (like the S42)and learn how to shoot it. I'm shooting molybedenum/teflon coated 160g bullets in it (http://www.masterblastersbullets.com/index.html) and tried them in the 9mms, worked well so I'm going to switch to them for 9mm and .45 too. Cheap as lead but minimal lead buildup. rk

07-21-2004, 08:06 AM	#7
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Age, I like the .45 best of all, am thinking about getting one of the new Springfield 1911 military guns for a shooter and leave the Remington on the wall, but as long as I reload carefully and keep it well taken care of it will last longer than I will. I still have to decide what to do with the S42, options are to send it on down the line or send it to Ted, he can restore it for what I'd pay for another good gun, and the 1918 Erfurt he restored for me is absoultely flawless in appearance and function. Anytime Ed, anytime. IIRC though it wasn't my wife who did the dishes. I also enjoyed the visit and the great steak dinner when I was up there earlier this year. Jim E, are you still out there? Your email isn't working. rk

07-23-2004, 12:00 AM	#9
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,528 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 3,711 Times in 1,014 Posts	RK! email me again about this errant P.08 shooter! Maybe we can work out a trade! best to you, til...lat'r...GT