Ebay holster warning!

lugerholsterrepair · 04-26-2003, 11:30 PM

Gentlemen, Despite what this seller says, do not for a second believe that this holster is anything but a reproduction! Late fifties or sixties, Pakistan or India made. Never seen Germany, I guarentee it.

WWI German Luger Holster (Stock version) Ebay
Item # 2172131424

(link added by admin-JS)

Auction Link

Jerry Burney

Greg · 04-27-2003, 05:09 PM

Hey Jerry,

For us novices, would you mind sharing what gave this holster "away" as not being original?

Thanks,

Greg

Navy · 04-27-2003, 05:37 PM

Hi Greg,

If I may answer instead of my esteamed colleague and former paratrooper comrade in arms, there are two distinct dead giveaways. First, the leather. Look at the texture (if it were present with you, I would ask you to smell it.) It isn't cowhide, it is goatskin.
Second, the vertical belt loop in conjunction with a shoulder stock mounting horizontal fixture.

These things were made along with some terribly crude board stocks with abominable attaching yokes and several thousand were introduced on the American market about 20 years ago. They turn up from time to time but are about as real as an honest Clintoon

Tom A.

Greg · 04-27-2003, 07:07 PM

Thanks Tom,

That is indeed valuable info.

Greg

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

lugerholsterrepair · 04-27-2003, 08:11 PM

Gentlemen, My comrade in arms has pretty much covered the story. Take a good look and it is relatively simple to see what is not right. There are many clues that I see to tell me. This type of combination stock block and belt loop is a common repro type. It was NEVER used on any original German P-08 holster. Hope this helps any of our members from believing this guys fraudulent claim. The reason I say these strong words is, I emailed this guy, Filmstuff last month when this holster was listed and told him about it. I didn't even get a courtesy go to hell, your wrong in reply. So in my opinion he dosen't care and this is not the type of person I would do business with. He dosen't seem to know anything about what he is selling. Jerry Burney

Bob in OH · 04-28-2003, 07:08 AM

Same guy sells on AA and has a bogus P.38 holster. Similar assessment of the bogus vintage from the P38 forum. Here's the AA listing under "Sig380" as the seller...

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=4244630

John Sabato · 04-28-2003, 10:35 AM

Gentlemen... could this Luger holster offered in the eBay auction in the first message of this thread possibly be one of the holsters from a 4-inch stocked Finnish Luger such as seen in this photograph instead of modern reproduction?

I got this photo from the German Hermann-historica auction website several years ago...

Ron Wood · 04-28-2003, 11:36 AM

John,
I'm glad you had that photo in your archived reference file. Finnish was my first impression when I saw the ebay photo because of the strap mark on the toe of the holster, but I didn't have any reference picture to back it up. However, the stock on the Hermann-historica piece sure looks like one of those "terribly crude board stocks with abominable attaching yokes" that Tom mentioned. So, the questions are: is this a totally fraudulent holster (likewise the Hermann-historica rig); or, is this a representative Finnish holster and were the stocks made up by the Finns to replace or augment German made stocks? We tend to forget about the Finns when it comes to stocked Lugers. I have no idea one way or another, but perhaps some of our European members can give us some input.

John Sabato · 04-28-2003, 11:41 AM

Ron,

I just noticed that the screws holding the attaching iron extend both above and below the iron in the photo... I have not seen a representative of this type of stock up close... only this photo. I have another example photo somewhere from the same source, but my unorganized collection of photos has grown so large that it is difficult to find things at times. Perhaps someone who owns an example of this type of Luger and stock could comment and post additional photos...

Notice the distinctive Finnish front sight on the Luger as well...

To me, the stock in the photo looks to have been harshly sanded to remove the dirt of ages of storage and use... the holster isn't in such great shape either... but I still wish it were mine

lugerholsterrepair · 04-28-2003, 12:22 PM

Gentlemen, NO, NO, a million times NO! Take a look at the back of the bogus holster. A stock block is made with a rise in the middle to inset into the stock which is inlet. This locks the stock block to the stock, keeps it from slipping up or down. No European with an ounce of brains in his head made this abomanation. The Finnish holster that John shows is of much higher quality. I would love to see the back side without a stock attached but I can stake my reputation on the fact that the holster offered by filmstuff is a bona fide fake. As I said there are other indicators, not just the stock block. Jerry Burney

John Sabato · 04-28-2003, 12:32 PM

thanks Jerry...

I guess that kind of historical knowledge is the reason why we asked you to be the moderator of this forum

Navy · 04-28-2003, 12:33 PM

The Finn is genuine; the Filmstuff piece is bogus. Look at the Finn and note the rod pocket coaxial with the mag pouch; note it is not present in the bogus piece.

Finns did indeed replace broken wooden stocks with locally fabricated ones; they also replaced holsters with German imports which were modified to fit board stocks. The modification consisted of complete removal of belt loops, adding the stock block and an attaching toe strap. These German mods are somewhat rare; I have owned one and seen two others; all were made in the Buchenvald Concentration Camp.

Tom A.

lugerholsterrepair · 04-28-2003, 12:45 PM

Gentlemen, The other obvious indicators are:

1 The top is not molded properly.

2 Brass roller buckle. While not unheard of it is extreamly uncommon and almost never on German P-08 holsters. I say almost because nothing is absolute in this field of study.

3 Look closely at the closure strap stitching. It is not proper at all.

3 The knot in the pull-up strap is folded over and stitched. These people who made this holster were not craftsmen at all.

4 There should be lines along the edges of most of the leather. This was not only decorative but was proven to round the edge and strengthen the leather.

John, Thanks for the compliment and the support.

Tom, Thanks , you are right and for the addditional info. Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 04-28-2003, 12:54 PM

Thanks Tom & Jerry
(Hey! "Tom & Jerry", how about that!) <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

Anyway, all foolishness aside, your posts are greatly appreciated and we are all the wiser for it. Even though it was stupid, I'm glad I asked the questions. Learned a lot. Thanks again

lugerholsterrepair · 04-28-2003, 01:27 PM

Ron, Please do not say my Friend Ron is asking stupid questions! I wonder everytime I make a declaritive statement if I am sticking my head in a noose! Sometimes you have to call them as you see them. I learned some here too. Thanks for everyone's input.I am still a student. Jerry Burney

04-26-2003, 11:30 PM	#1
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Ebay holster warning! Gentlemen, Despite what this seller says, do not for a second believe that this holster is anything but a reproduction! Late fifties or sixties, Pakistan or India made. Never seen Germany, I guarentee it. WWI German Luger Holster (Stock version) Ebay Item # 2172131424 (link added by admin-JS) Auction Link Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-27-2003, 08:11 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Gentlemen, My comrade in arms has pretty much covered the story. Take a good look and it is relatively simple to see what is not right. There are many clues that I see to tell me. This type of combination stock block and belt loop is a common repro type. It was NEVER used on any original German P-08 holster. Hope this helps any of our members from believing this guys fraudulent claim. The reason I say these strong words is, I emailed this guy, Filmstuff last month when this holster was listed and told him about it. I didn't even get a courtesy go to hell, your wrong in reply. So in my opinion he dosen't care and this is not the type of person I would do business with. He dosen't seem to know anything about what he is selling. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-28-2003, 10:35 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Gentlemen... could this Luger holster offered in the eBay auction in the first message of this thread possibly be one of the holsters from a 4-inch stocked Finnish Luger such as seen in this photograph instead of modern reproduction? I got this photo from the German Hermann-historica auction website several years ago... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-28-2003, 11:36 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	John, I'm glad you had that photo in your archived reference file. Finnish was my first impression when I saw the ebay photo because of the strap mark on the toe of the holster, but I didn't have any reference picture to back it up. However, the stock on the Hermann-historica piece sure looks like one of those "terribly crude board stocks with abominable attaching yokes" that Tom mentioned. So, the questions are: is this a totally fraudulent holster (likewise the Hermann-historica rig); or, is this a representative Finnish holster and were the stocks made up by the Finns to replace or augment German made stocks? We tend to forget about the Finns when it comes to stocked Lugers. I have no idea one way or another, but perhaps some of our European members can give us some input. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-28-2003, 11:41 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Ron, I just noticed that the screws holding the attaching iron extend both above and below the iron in the photo... I have not seen a representative of this type of stock up close... only this photo. I have another example photo somewhere from the same source, but my unorganized collection of photos has grown so large that it is difficult to find things at times. Perhaps someone who owns an example of this type of Luger and stock could comment and post additional photos... Notice the distinctive Finnish front sight on the Luger as well... To me, the stock in the photo looks to have been harshly sanded to remove the dirt of ages of storage and use... the holster isn't in such great shape either... but I still wish it were mine __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-27-2003, 05:09 PM	#2
Greg User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern U.S. Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hey Jerry, For us novices, would you mind sharing what gave this holster "away" as not being original? Thanks, Greg

04-27-2003, 05:37 PM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Greg, If I may answer instead of my esteamed colleague and former paratrooper comrade in arms, there are two distinct dead giveaways. First, the leather. Look at the texture (if it were present with you, I would ask you to smell it.) It isn't cowhide, it is goatskin. Second, the vertical belt loop in conjunction with a shoulder stock mounting horizontal fixture. These things were made along with some terribly crude board stocks with abominable attaching yokes and several thousand were introduced on the American market about 20 years ago. They turn up from time to time but are about as real as an honest Clintoon Tom A.

04-27-2003, 07:07 PM	#4
Greg User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern U.S. Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks Tom, That is indeed valuable info. Greg <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

04-28-2003, 07:08 AM	#6
Bob in OH User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NE OH Posts: 129 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Same guy sells on AA and has a bogus P.38 holster. Similar assessment of the bogus vintage from the P38 forum. Here's the AA listing under "Sig380" as the seller... http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=4244630

04-28-2003, 12:22 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Gentlemen, NO, NO, a million times NO! Take a look at the back of the bogus holster. A stock block is made with a rise in the middle to inset into the stock which is inlet. This locks the stock block to the stock, keeps it from slipping up or down. No European with an ounce of brains in his head made this abomanation. The Finnish holster that John shows is of much higher quality. I would love to see the back side without a stock attached but I can stake my reputation on the fact that the holster offered by filmstuff is a bona fide fake. As I said there are other indicators, not just the stock block. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-28-2003, 12:32 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	thanks Jerry... I guess that kind of historical knowledge is the reason why we asked you to be the moderator of this forum __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-28-2003, 12:33 PM	#12
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The Finn is genuine; the Filmstuff piece is bogus. Look at the Finn and note the rod pocket coaxial with the mag pouch; note it is not present in the bogus piece. Finns did indeed replace broken wooden stocks with locally fabricated ones; they also replaced holsters with German imports which were modified to fit board stocks. The modification consisted of complete removal of belt loops, adding the stock block and an attaching toe strap. These German mods are somewhat rare; I have owned one and seen two others; all were made in the Buchenvald Concentration Camp. Tom A.

04-28-2003, 12:45 PM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Gentlemen, The other obvious indicators are: 1 The top is not molded properly. 2 Brass roller buckle. While not unheard of it is extreamly uncommon and almost never on German P-08 holsters. I say almost because nothing is absolute in this field of study. 3 Look closely at the closure strap stitching. It is not proper at all. 3 The knot in the pull-up strap is folded over and stitched. These people who made this holster were not craftsmen at all. 4 There should be lines along the edges of most of the leather. This was not only decorative but was proven to round the edge and strengthen the leather. John, Thanks for the compliment and the support. Tom, Thanks , you are right and for the addditional info. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-28-2003, 12:54 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Thanks Tom & Jerry (Hey! "Tom & Jerry", how about that!) <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> Anyway, all foolishness aside, your posts are greatly appreciated and we are all the wiser for it. Even though it was stupid, I'm glad I asked the questions. Learned a lot. Thanks again __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-28-2003, 01:27 PM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Ron, Please do not say my Friend Ron is asking stupid questions! I wonder everytime I make a declaritive statement if I am sticking my head in a noose! Sometimes you have to call them as you see them. I learned some here too. Thanks for everyone's input.I am still a student. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."