Last manufacture ?

LU1900 · 02-26-2004, 06:32 AM

I just want to show you one holster that some collectors have seen in Europe but all says "it's the last made"
At the end of the war they made it without maker or anything else stamped and without the little pocket for the tool.
The leather is also very thin.

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_face.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_face.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Those holsters where built as replacements when the good ones where damaged by war or weather
I hope you comment (and excuse my english)
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_ouv.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_ouv.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_dos.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_dos.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_lat.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_lat.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

John Sabato · 02-26-2004, 10:30 AM

Very Nice Patrice!... I thumbnailed the photos for easier viewing in lower resolution, but anyone who want to see the images full size can just click on the small image...

LU1900 · 02-26-2004, 11:04 AM

Thanks for your help John,always attentive to other and what nice forum !!

Pete Ebbink · 02-26-2004, 11:48 AM

Hello Patrice,

What a beautiful holster. Thanks so much for posting the photos...

I am a bit curious about the fact that late in the War, the holster maker would chose to use the "stamped pebble grain" leather. Seems like this would just add another step and add time to the process of making holsters.

p.s.

Could you also tell us more about that very nice looking luger in the holster...I got so busy looking at the leather, I nearly missed what was in it...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

lugerholsterrepair · 02-26-2004, 12:05 PM

Patrice, A beautiful example of a rare holster! I have never seen a Luger Police holster made in pebble grain.I have seen Artillery's made of this leather. You say the holster is one of the last made and it might very well have been but, the look of the holster is indicative of the Germans passion for quality. Even though the tool pouch is missing I cannot detect where any other conservation measures have been taken. The top is molded perfectly, the pull up strap looks to be normal, the edges of the leather are rolled, right down to the magazine pouch top. The only fault I can find is, the closure strap is slightly askew.
The thickness of the leather on this holster is not necessarily indicative of it's late manufacture, rather the type of leather it is made of. Pebble grain leather is never seen in great thickness. I suspect it was something about the pressing process that created the pebble grain, thick leather does not press well.

Patrice, I would be interested to know just how thick the leather is on this holster. The top and body thickness.

A normal holster is a minimum of one tenth of an inch and can go to around .01,20. I have the original German specifications for leather thickness for holsters around here somewhere.

Let me know if you have a dial micrometer or another good way to measure the thickness. Thanks, Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 02-26-2004, 12:10 PM

I am no expert on this era holsters, but I think this is a type of "ersatz" holster fabricated from a synthetic material that is very similar to paper. Patrice's holster is in outstanding condition and if I am correct concerning its construction, it must be quite scarce.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-26-2004, 12:57 PM

Ron, I am interested to know why you believe this?
I have had several Ersatz paper holsters in my shop and none looked like this one. The edges invariably seperate to disclose the many layers the material is fabricated of. I cannot be 100% certain because of the photo's but this sure looks like leather to me.
Another indicator of a paper holster is shape. It holds it's shape well if tacked down around the edges such as a holster body but on tops it tends to flatten out. This top is beautifully formed and retains it's shape well.
It's true that many of the paper holsters you speak of had the pebble grain surface. Interesting none the less!
Let me know...Jerry Burney

Herb · 02-26-2004, 01:05 PM

Not being a holster expert but aren't these type of holsters also called pigskin? I've heard that they are pretty rare.

Pete Ebbink · 02-26-2004, 01:30 PM

Herb,

I concluded this one was stamped, pebble grain because of the symmetry and uniformity of the "dimple" pattern.

I think with a real pig skin hide, there would be more ramdon variation in the "dimple" pattern. And I also remember some of our leather experts mentioning a 3-hair hole pattern at each dimple if truly from a pig...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 02-26-2004, 01:34 PM

Oh man...am I in trouble! The top holster construction expert has put me on the spot. Jerry, what got me started down this primrose path were the things you picked up on, the gauge of the material and the pebble finish. It just looks like the few paper holsters I have seen, but in magnificent condition. It obviously was not carried much and has been stored in the best of conditions. One of the things that did influence my thoughts is shown in the shot of the open holster with the Luger in it. If you look closely at the blown-up photo, you can see what appears to be a double layer of material on the top edge of the holster just to the right of the pull-up strap and on the leading edge of the magazine pouch.

I am not at all certain it is paper. It certainly does not exhibit any foxing or separation of the layers that you would expect. I guess it is either leather or an extremely rare mint ersatz holster.

John Sabato · 02-26-2004, 02:06 PM

Darn! I wrote three paragraphs to tell Ron why I believe that this is a leather holster and then pushed the wrong button and lost it all.

Summary. I think the layers seen above (looks like 3) are too few for an ersatz holster. The few that I have examined had multiple layers, many more than three. I think what we are seeing is an optical illusion in the photos that is the result of thin leather that has been very sharply cut and the top and bottom edges have freyed slightly due to aging and that makes the solid leather in the center that hasn't freyed look like a sandwiched layer.

Patrice, can you confirm if this is leather or not? Inquiring minds want to know.

Leon DeSpain · 02-27-2004, 03:54 PM

FWIW...Here is a link to my pressed paper P.08 police marked holster.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page164.html

Pebble grain was put on both cowhide and pigskin P.38 holsters that I have. I assume they could have done the same with the P.08 holsters.

Regards, Leon

lugerholsterrepair · 02-27-2004, 04:27 PM

Ron, Durn you computer geeks! I barely know how to turn this thing on and you show up with up close photo's and arrows!
I don't know how to explain the line there in the middle but most of the paper holsters I have observed have many layers as John has observed. Anything is a possibility and I am no expert here at all. It is simply of interest to me.It's just my general impression and gut feeling that this holster is leather. Of course parts could be leather and parts paper.

Leon, I have never seen pigskin with a pebble grain finish. Do you have any photo's of such a holster? Reason I ask is, pigskin does not have soft surface qualities like cowhide and as such it would be extremely difficult to impress the leather and have it hold. Pigskin is really very much like cardboard on stiffness and consistency. Odd stuff to be sure and does not lend itself to bending or stitching like cowhide. It tears out easily, particularly if sewn into the wrong grain. Let me know if you have an example of pebble grain pigskin, I would be excited to see it.

I just took a look at Leon's excellent paper Police Luger and It is a great study on this subject. You will notice the back belt loops are deffinately leather. The top flap is distorted and not at all like the other holster. The inside surfaces are very smooth and have no suede at all. I noticed the surface is sort of a reverse pebble grain....The interior tool pouch also appears to be leather. This pouch is missing on the other holster and yet is present on Leons paper one? Leons holster is also marked. This leaves quite a few questions about our first holster, why was the tool pouch left out and why was it not marked with a date or code? Thanks Leon, Really nice example, very rare too!

Thanks, Jerry Burney

Leon DeSpain · 02-27-2004, 05:02 PM

Hi Jerry,

Here is the link to pictures of my pebble grained pigskin P.38 holster. Hope this answers your questions.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page161.html

Regards, Leon

LU1900 · 03-02-2004, 10:12 AM

Hello I'm back from the gun show in Poitiers.It seem my holster same than the P38 from Leon.I see two other one in collection this week and they are in those collec. 20 years ago and just same like this one
Those erzats are in leather but 2 mm thick and see the making:we don't see the seam inside for the belt loop

lugerholsterrepair · 03-02-2004, 10:46 AM

Leon, Well that's a new one on me! If your not very carefull you learn something...This is a rare process. I cannot remember ever seeing pebbled pigskin anywhere else. I have dyed lots of pigskin and bleeding thru is exactly what it does.
For those of you who are interested there is another thing to notice on Leons holster. The photo of the back top lid edge shows where it is cut, the hair follicle holes that go all the way thru the leather.
Leon a really great example of what must be a very rare holster...Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 03-02-2004, 11:25 AM

OK, I'm going with leather instead of paper on Patrice's holster, and don't nobody try to talk me out of it. (Geez that is awful English <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" /> )

G.T. · 03-03-2004, 02:12 AM

Hi Ron, Jerry & all! The photos that Ron posted made me think a bit...(always dangerious!) but the pic's of the line and /or seam on the photo would seem to be some kind of lamination??? It's most likely is two thin pieces of hide, laminated together to utilize left over leather from some other department... I don't think anything was beyond their effort or talent....and everything & anything was being utilized! The thick pebble grain pigskin holster of leons is simply amazing! If you've seen a few pigskin holsters, and have ever tried to buy pigskin, you will fine that they are never, ever, that thick of material! Leons would be the very best pigskin holster available at the time, just based on strength... but it probably was still a bit weaker then the standard cowhide.... best to all! til...lat'r....GT <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

02-26-2004, 06:32 AM	#1
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 912 Thanks: 46 Thanked 473 Times in 199 Posts	Last manufacture ? I just want to show you one holster that some collectors have seen in Europe but all says "it's the last made" At the end of the war they made it without maker or anything else stamped and without the little pocket for the tool. The leather is also very thin. <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_face.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_face.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Those holsters where built as replacements when the good ones where damaged by war or weather I hope you comment (and excuse my english) <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_ouv.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_ouv.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_dos.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_dos.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_lat.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/hol_lat.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

02-26-2004, 10:30 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Very Nice Patrice!... I thumbnailed the photos for easier viewing in lower resolution, but anyone who want to see the images full size can just click on the small image... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-26-2004, 11:04 AM	#3
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 912 Thanks: 46 Thanked 473 Times in 199 Posts	Thanks for your help John,always attentive to other and what nice forum !! __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

02-26-2004, 12:05 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Patrice, A beautiful example of a rare holster! I have never seen a Luger Police holster made in pebble grain.I have seen Artillery's made of this leather. You say the holster is one of the last made and it might very well have been but, the look of the holster is indicative of the Germans passion for quality. Even though the tool pouch is missing I cannot detect where any other conservation measures have been taken. The top is molded perfectly, the pull up strap looks to be normal, the edges of the leather are rolled, right down to the magazine pouch top. The only fault I can find is, the closure strap is slightly askew. The thickness of the leather on this holster is not necessarily indicative of it's late manufacture, rather the type of leather it is made of. Pebble grain leather is never seen in great thickness. I suspect it was something about the pressing process that created the pebble grain, thick leather does not press well. Patrice, I would be interested to know just how thick the leather is on this holster. The top and body thickness. A normal holster is a minimum of one tenth of an inch and can go to around .01,20. I have the original German specifications for leather thickness for holsters around here somewhere. Let me know if you have a dial micrometer or another good way to measure the thickness. Thanks, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-26-2004, 12:10 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	I am no expert on this era holsters, but I think this is a type of "ersatz" holster fabricated from a synthetic material that is very similar to paper. Patrice's holster is in outstanding condition and if I am correct concerning its construction, it must be quite scarce. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-26-2004, 11:48 AM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Patrice, What a beautiful holster. Thanks so much for posting the photos... I am a bit curious about the fact that late in the War, the holster maker would chose to use the "stamped pebble grain" leather. Seems like this would just add another step and add time to the process of making holsters. p.s. Could you also tell us more about that very nice looking luger in the holster...I got so busy looking at the leather, I nearly missed what was in it... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-26-2004, 12:57 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Ron, I am interested to know why you believe this? I have had several Ersatz paper holsters in my shop and none looked like this one. The edges invariably seperate to disclose the many layers the material is fabricated of. I cannot be 100% certain because of the photo's but this sure looks like leather to me. Another indicator of a paper holster is shape. It holds it's shape well if tacked down around the edges such as a holster body but on tops it tends to flatten out. This top is beautifully formed and retains it's shape well. It's true that many of the paper holsters you speak of had the pebble grain surface. Interesting none the less! Let me know...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-26-2004, 01:05 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Not being a holster expert but aren't these type of holsters also called pigskin? I've heard that they are pretty rare. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

02-26-2004, 01:30 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Herb, I concluded this one was stamped, pebble grain because of the symmetry and uniformity of the "dimple" pattern. I think with a real pig skin hide, there would be more ramdon variation in the "dimple" pattern. And I also remember some of our leather experts mentioning a 3-hair hole pattern at each dimple if truly from a pig... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-26-2004, 01:34 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	Oh man...am I in trouble! The top holster construction expert has put me on the spot. Jerry, what got me started down this primrose path were the things you picked up on, the gauge of the material and the pebble finish. It just looks like the few paper holsters I have seen, but in magnificent condition. It obviously was not carried much and has been stored in the best of conditions. One of the things that did influence my thoughts is shown in the shot of the open holster with the Luger in it. If you look closely at the blown-up photo, you can see what appears to be a double layer of material on the top edge of the holster just to the right of the pull-up strap and on the leading edge of the magazine pouch. I am not at all certain it is paper. It certainly does not exhibit any foxing or separation of the layers that you would expect. I guess it is either leather or an extremely rare mint ersatz holster. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-26-2004, 02:06 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Darn! I wrote three paragraphs to tell Ron why I believe that this is a leather holster and then pushed the wrong button and lost it all. Summary. I think the layers seen above (looks like 3) are too few for an ersatz holster. The few that I have examined had multiple layers, many more than three. I think what we are seeing is an optical illusion in the photos that is the result of thin leather that has been very sharply cut and the top and bottom edges have freyed slightly due to aging and that makes the solid leather in the center that hasn't freyed look like a sandwiched layer. Patrice, can you confirm if this is leather or not? Inquiring minds want to know. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-27-2004, 03:54 PM	#12
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	FWIW...Here is a link to my pressed paper P.08 police marked holster. http://lmd-militaria.com/page164.html Pebble grain was put on both cowhide and pigskin P.38 holsters that I have. I assume they could have done the same with the P.08 holsters. Regards, Leon

02-27-2004, 04:27 PM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Ron, Durn you computer geeks! I barely know how to turn this thing on and you show up with up close photo's and arrows! I don't know how to explain the line there in the middle but most of the paper holsters I have observed have many layers as John has observed. Anything is a possibility and I am no expert here at all. It is simply of interest to me.It's just my general impression and gut feeling that this holster is leather. Of course parts could be leather and parts paper. Leon, I have never seen pigskin with a pebble grain finish. Do you have any photo's of such a holster? Reason I ask is, pigskin does not have soft surface qualities like cowhide and as such it would be extremely difficult to impress the leather and have it hold. Pigskin is really very much like cardboard on stiffness and consistency. Odd stuff to be sure and does not lend itself to bending or stitching like cowhide. It tears out easily, particularly if sewn into the wrong grain. Let me know if you have an example of pebble grain pigskin, I would be excited to see it. I just took a look at Leon's excellent paper Police Luger and It is a great study on this subject. You will notice the back belt loops are deffinately leather. The top flap is distorted and not at all like the other holster. The inside surfaces are very smooth and have no suede at all. I noticed the surface is sort of a reverse pebble grain....The interior tool pouch also appears to be leather. This pouch is missing on the other holster and yet is present on Leons paper one? Leons holster is also marked. This leaves quite a few questions about our first holster, why was the tool pouch left out and why was it not marked with a date or code? Thanks Leon, Really nice example, very rare too! Thanks, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-27-2004, 05:02 PM	#14
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Hi Jerry, Here is the link to pictures of my pebble grained pigskin P.38 holster. Hope this answers your questions. http://lmd-militaria.com/page161.html Regards, Leon

03-02-2004, 10:12 AM	#15
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 912 Thanks: 46 Thanked 473 Times in 199 Posts	Hello I'm back from the gun show in Poitiers.It seem my holster same than the P38 from Leon.I see two other one in collection this week and they are in those collec. 20 years ago and just same like this one Those erzats are in leather but 2 mm thick and see the making:we don't see the seam inside for the belt loop __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

03-02-2004, 10:46 AM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Leon, Well that's a new one on me! If your not very carefull you learn something...This is a rare process. I cannot remember ever seeing pebbled pigskin anywhere else. I have dyed lots of pigskin and bleeding thru is exactly what it does. For those of you who are interested there is another thing to notice on Leons holster. The photo of the back top lid edge shows where it is cut, the hair follicle holes that go all the way thru the leather. Leon a really great example of what must be a very rare holster...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-02-2004, 11:25 AM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	OK, I'm going with leather instead of paper on Patrice's holster, and don't nobody try to talk me out of it. (Geez that is awful English <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" /> ) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-03-2004, 02:12 AM	#18
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,528 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 3,711 Times in 1,014 Posts	Hi Ron, Jerry & all! The photos that Ron posted made me think a bit...(always dangerious!) but the pic's of the line and /or seam on the photo would seem to be some kind of lamination??? It's most likely is two thin pieces of hide, laminated together to utilize left over leather from some other department... I don't think anything was beyond their effort or talent....and everything & anything was being utilized! The thick pebble grain pigskin holster of leons is simply amazing! If you've seen a few pigskin holsters, and have ever tried to buy pigskin, you will fine that they are never, ever, that thick of material! Leons would be the very best pigskin holster available at the time, just based on strength... but it probably was still a bit weaker then the standard cowhide.... best to all! til...lat'r....GT <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />