1939 Nazi Navy

Frank H · 08-30-2003, 04:42 PM

I'm at a gun show and need info on a 1939 Nazi Navy-how do you tell if its Navy beside the unit markings? all matching numbers-unit markings on the front of the frame and unit number on the magazine. S/42 on the toggle, 1939 on the barrel which appears to be a 4 inchs. Is this a rare find? Any idea to value would be appreciated. I'm looking in Lugers at random-just getting more confused. Thanks Guys Dr. Frank

Aaron · 08-30-2003, 07:13 PM

I don't know about "rarity" as I'm not into Nazi navy Lugers, but I believe you can safely pay about twice as much as you would for the same pistol without such markings, especially with a matching magazine.

Pete Ebbink · 08-31-2003, 01:40 AM

Hello Dr. Frank,

If you do not hear from some of the Navy collectors, let me know and I will be happy to send yo some copies of 10-14 pages out of Jan's Still's book, Axis Pistols...lots of various navy markings shown therein...

Send me your mail-to address to my e-mail at "pebbink@pacbell.net" and I can get this out to you via slow-mail...

Or if you have a fast Internet connection, I can send you scanned jpeg files...just let me know your e-mail address (privately...)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

kidvett · 08-31-2003, 03:04 PM

Dr. Frank,

I'm by no means a Navy expert...as my primary area of collecting is III Reich Lugers.

I have seen a couple of Navy pistols of the Nazi Era and all of them had a Navy acceptance mark somewhere. Some pistols I've seen had the Kriegsmarine Proofmark ( with the large M ) on the left side of the frame on the flat area...

Mark

MauserLugers · 08-31-2003, 03:55 PM

Dr. Frank,
Navy Third Reich Lugers are all fairly uncommon. Only the K-dates (1934) and some of the G-dates (1935) have a navy proofmark -- Eagle M. All the other models do not. Navy Lugers will have the property number on the front grip strap or back grip strap with either an O. or an N. with a number following it, for example N. 4449. This N. or O. property number is the only way you can tell these are navy Lugers.

Navy Lugers are highly enhanced as it is simple to add the N. or O. property number, thus making yourself a Navy Luger.

Any 1939 dated navy Luger is very scarce and a real find if correct and a true navy. In Jan Stills' "Third Reich Lugers", Jan states only 5 were known to him as of that printing. Again, one would have to very careful of these 1939's due to being faked so much.

I personally have examined fake navy Lugers that had the same property numbers as other Lugers recorded in books, different serial number, but the same navy property number. I have personally examined Lugers that were faked with the N. or O. property numbers that fit into the correct range due to the proper range being recorded for all to view in books. One has to be extremely careful of these.-- Bill

Navy · 09-01-2003, 06:39 PM

Navy Lugers are a highly specialized field that should not be undertaken without a lot of study, mentoring and a healthy check book.
Tom A.

lugerholsterrepair · 09-01-2003, 09:19 PM

Tom, Sounds like preparing for a trip to Las Vegas....Jerry Burney

Navy · 09-03-2003, 07:40 AM

Just did a quickie check of my Navy data base; only 4 1939 KM pieces reported.
Tom A.

Frank H · 09-05-2003, 09:21 AM

RUN Forest RUN!

Dr. F

Navy · 09-05-2003, 06:31 PM

Dr Frank,

Not so fast now. There is a chance the piece is good. You need to get an experienced Navy collector to help you. Were I not traveling, I would be pleased to assist.

I suggest you get intouch with the seller and inquire if photos are available or if they will permit such. Also, need to get property number and SN. Pls send me a private e-mail with name of seller as I think I have a small remembrance of a Nazi Navy FS in the JAX area.

Tom A.

Pete Ebbink · 09-08-2003, 06:40 PM

Hello Dr. Frank,

Sorry about the delay in getting you the info. e-mailed out.

We are in the process of upgrading to some 160 GB hard disks on our home PC's and it is taking a few more days than we had anticipated. Once this is done and the scanner can be fired up, I will send you the info. Should be by Friday at the latest...

Regrets,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Frank H · 09-10-2003, 02:29 PM

Guys-I made a big mistake, its not an S/42, just 42 on the toggle. I hope I didn't get too many of you excited! Sorry. The following is the correct information. Dated 1939, #4593 y, N property number, (crosswise) on the front grip strap and below that 3848. This would indicate a Kriegsmarine variation which was issued from the arsenal of the North Sea Naval Station headquartered at Wilhelmshaven (Marinestation der Nordsee),with a procurement of 400. The mag is matching and marked with the property # N3848 X engraved on the magazine. The X signifies an extra magazine. There are 118 N and O. Military Code Lugers reported. This information was gathered from Stills books. Thanks for everyones help and sorry about the mix up-I was just excited!
Frank

Navy · 09-10-2003, 04:16 PM

Dr Frank,
That all sounds *very* interesting; I think you may be on to something good. Will check my data base tonight and get back to you.
Tom A

johnnylo · 10-19-2003, 10:11 PM

Hey Frank
I have a 1940, 42 0n the toggle. On the rear of the grip it has property number N 3877, do you have any info as to if this number was issued from the same arsenal as yours?

John

Lugerdoc · 10-20-2003, 10:40 AM

JL, I recently sold a 1940 Navy S/N 4112a with N over 4019 on the rear grip strap. Th

Frank H · 10-20-2003, 10:45 AM

John- This is from Jan Still's book-THIRD REICH LUGERS-"Kiegsmarine Variation: N property number (crosswise) on the rear grip strap and issue magazine...
1940 Date: 34 reported mostly in the a, c, d, e, and f serial blocks; the property range is N3993-N4860 and O.3045-O.4771. Estimated Kriegsmarine procurement 2000."
To answer your question; "arms and equipment issued from the arsenal of the North Sea Naval Station headquartered at Wilhelmshaven (Marinestation der Nordsee) were identified by an "N" property number".
From what I can tell the property number N3877 should fall in the year of 1939.
I just bet another member can help us out on this! Right-Tom A.-Pete-MauserLugers.
Frank

johnnylo · 10-20-2003, 11:32 AM

thanks Frank, Doc, this info is appreciated.

the serial number on mine has the suffix what looks to be a Z.

JOhn

johnnylo · 10-21-2003, 09:47 PM

I have been in contact with Don Hallock as he is knowledgeable in mausers.

He advised that the 1940 were first produced in the y block in concert with the 1939 pistol. He also advised that the property number would coincide with the serial number. this would explain Franks findings.

John

08-30-2003, 04:42 PM	#1
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1939 Nazi Navy I'm at a gun show and need info on a 1939 Nazi Navy-how do you tell if its Navy beside the unit markings? all matching numbers-unit markings on the front of the frame and unit number on the magazine. S/42 on the toggle, 1939 on the barrel which appears to be a 4 inchs. Is this a rare find? Any idea to value would be appreciated. I'm looking in Lugers at random-just getting more confused. Thanks Guys Dr. Frank

09-01-2003, 09:19 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Tom, Sounds like preparing for a trip to Las Vegas....Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-19-2003, 10:11 PM	#14
johnnylo User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey Frank I have a 1940, 42 0n the toggle. On the rear of the grip it has property number N 3877, do you have any info as to if this number was issued from the same arsenal as yours? John __________________ jlo

10-20-2003, 10:40 AM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	JL, I recently sold a 1940 Navy S/N 4112a with N over 4019 on the rear grip strap. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-20-2003, 11:32 AM	#17
johnnylo User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks Frank, Doc, this info is appreciated. the serial number on mine has the suffix what looks to be a Z. JOhn __________________ jlo

08-30-2003, 07:13 PM	#2
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	I don't know about "rarity" as I'm not into Nazi navy Lugers, but I believe you can safely pay about twice as much as you would for the same pistol without such markings, especially with a matching magazine.

08-31-2003, 01:40 AM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Dr. Frank, If you do not hear from some of the Navy collectors, let me know and I will be happy to send yo some copies of 10-14 pages out of Jan's Still's book, Axis Pistols...lots of various navy markings shown therein... Send me your mail-to address to my e-mail at "pebbink@pacbell.net" and I can get this out to you via slow-mail... Or if you have a fast Internet connection, I can send you scanned jpeg files...just let me know your e-mail address (privately...) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-31-2003, 03:04 PM	#4
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Dr. Frank, I'm by no means a Navy expert...as my primary area of collecting is III Reich Lugers. I have seen a couple of Navy pistols of the Nazi Era and all of them had a Navy acceptance mark somewhere. Some pistols I've seen had the Kriegsmarine Proofmark ( with the large M ) on the left side of the frame on the flat area... Mark

08-31-2003, 03:55 PM	#5
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Dr. Frank, Navy Third Reich Lugers are all fairly uncommon. Only the K-dates (1934) and some of the G-dates (1935) have a navy proofmark -- Eagle M. All the other models do not. Navy Lugers will have the property number on the front grip strap or back grip strap with either an O. or an N. with a number following it, for example N. 4449. This N. or O. property number is the only way you can tell these are navy Lugers. Navy Lugers are highly enhanced as it is simple to add the N. or O. property number, thus making yourself a Navy Luger. Any 1939 dated navy Luger is very scarce and a real find if correct and a true navy. In Jan Stills' "Third Reich Lugers", Jan states only 5 were known to him as of that printing. Again, one would have to very careful of these 1939's due to being faked so much. I personally have examined fake navy Lugers that had the same property numbers as other Lugers recorded in books, different serial number, but the same navy property number. I have personally examined Lugers that were faked with the N. or O. property numbers that fit into the correct range due to the proper range being recorded for all to view in books. One has to be extremely careful of these.-- Bill

09-01-2003, 06:39 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Navy Lugers are a highly specialized field that should not be undertaken without a lot of study, mentoring and a healthy check book. Tom A.

09-03-2003, 07:40 AM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Just did a quickie check of my Navy data base; only 4 1939 KM pieces reported. Tom A.

09-05-2003, 09:21 AM	#9
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	RUN Forest RUN! Dr. F

09-05-2003, 06:31 PM	#10
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Dr Frank, Not so fast now. There is a chance the piece is good. You need to get an experienced Navy collector to help you. Were I not traveling, I would be pleased to assist. I suggest you get intouch with the seller and inquire if photos are available or if they will permit such. Also, need to get property number and SN. Pls send me a private e-mail with name of seller as I think I have a small remembrance of a Nazi Navy FS in the JAX area. Tom A.

09-08-2003, 06:40 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Dr. Frank, Sorry about the delay in getting you the info. e-mailed out. We are in the process of upgrading to some 160 GB hard disks on our home PC's and it is taking a few more days than we had anticipated. Once this is done and the scanner can be fired up, I will send you the info. Should be by Friday at the latest... Regrets, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-10-2003, 02:29 PM	#12
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Guys-I made a big mistake, its not an S/42, just 42 on the toggle. I hope I didn't get too many of you excited! Sorry. The following is the correct information. Dated 1939, #4593 y, N property number, (crosswise) on the front grip strap and below that 3848. This would indicate a Kriegsmarine variation which was issued from the arsenal of the North Sea Naval Station headquartered at Wilhelmshaven (Marinestation der Nordsee),with a procurement of 400. The mag is matching and marked with the property # N3848 X engraved on the magazine. The X signifies an extra magazine. There are 118 N and O. Military Code Lugers reported. This information was gathered from Stills books. Thanks for everyones help and sorry about the mix up-I was just excited! Frank

09-10-2003, 04:16 PM	#13
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Dr Frank, That all sounds very interesting; I think you may be on to something good. Will check my data base tonight and get back to you. Tom A

10-20-2003, 10:45 AM	#16
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John- This is from Jan Still's book-THIRD REICH LUGERS-"Kiegsmarine Variation: N property number (crosswise) on the rear grip strap and issue magazine... 1940 Date: 34 reported mostly in the a, c, d, e, and f serial blocks; the property range is N3993-N4860 and O.3045-O.4771. Estimated Kriegsmarine procurement 2000." To answer your question; "arms and equipment issued from the arsenal of the North Sea Naval Station headquartered at Wilhelmshaven (Marinestation der Nordsee) were identified by an "N" property number". From what I can tell the property number N3877 should fall in the year of 1939. I just bet another member can help us out on this! Right-Tom A.-Pete-MauserLugers. Frank

10-21-2003, 09:47 PM	#18
johnnylo User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have been in contact with Don Hallock as he is knowledgeable in mausers. He advised that the 1940 were first produced in the y block in concert with the 1939 pistol. He also advised that the property number would coincide with the serial number. this would explain Franks findings. John __________________ jlo