I'druther be lucky than smart

Navy · 04-26-2003, 02:23 PM

All,
Was filling out Don Hallock's Luger magazine sheet today, going through my trove of "extra" mgazines, almost all Imperial Navy.

Well, I pick up one I bought at a show several years ago and note that it has a small circle of paper stuck to the spine...one of those dots with adhesive that people use to cover up the so-called offensive symbols on flea-bay.
Under the sticky dot was the number 137 stamped into the spine.

My '04 is SN 138.

Today is a GREAT day so far.

Tom A.

lugerholsterrepair · 04-26-2003, 04:54 PM

WOW Tom, Great find! Pays to see what's underneath sometimes. Jerry Burney

Imperial Arms · 04-26-2003, 10:59 PM

Hello Tom,

Usually, the serial number of an early 1904 Navy Luger magazine would be stamped on the wood base and not on the metal body. A 1904 Navy magazine would also be stamped with a Crown/M proof. I have observed both characteristics on the matching magazine for serial #36.

Nevertheless, your discovery is exciting indeed and it might be better than the magazine that accompanied your Navy Luger as long as it is in better condition. It might be useful to study more early Navy magazines until you make a final choice.

Cheers,
Albert

Navy · 04-27-2003, 11:20 AM

Albert,
I have concentric ring, crown M mag Serial 143, so I am closing in on the target.
Tom A.

Big Norm · 04-29-2003, 12:01 PM

Tom A,
I know that navy magazine don't necessarily have to have concentric circles. But do they necessarily have to be C/M? Do they necessarily have to have the large numbering found on all the ones that I consider navy magazines?
Big Norm

Navy · 04-29-2003, 12:40 PM

Hi Norm,

I have seen Navy mags in many, many different configurations and markings. Amnong them are:
a. Concentric ring, no other markings
b. Concentric Ring serial numbered large numbers lengthwise on the plug, both with and w/o Crown M
c. Concentric ring serial numbered across the plug,both with and w/o Crown M
d. Both b and c above with property mumbers on spine
e. Concentric ring marked 9mm
f. Concentric ring marked "Germany"
g. Plain ring, serial numbered large numbers lengthwise, with and w/o Crown M
h. Plain ring, serial numbered small numbers, with and without Crown M
i. As h above with property numbers on spine
j. Plain ring, property number ONLY on plug
k. Plain ring, Crown M, 7.65 on plug

Weimar Navy guns sport almost every configuration you can imagine. My Kreigsmarine guns have other peculiarities, but most have SN and property number on aluminum base.

Tom A

Big Norm · 04-29-2003, 10:38 PM

Tom,
it looks as though, on Imperial Era navy Lugers, just about anything goes as long as its a wood bottom. I can not see an exception in your list. So lets go the other direction. If an original mag has concentric circles and all else ignored, would that make that magazine an Imperial Era navy magazine? How about if the numbering was large, going either vertical or horizontally and all else ignored, would that make that magazine an Imperial Era navy magazine?
Big Norm

Navy · 04-30-2003, 07:32 AM

Hi Norm,
I think that since there were concentric ring wood bottoms used in commercial guns through the 1920,s, there has to be something more definitive to base a claim of Imperial Navy upon.

For certain, a Crown M on any type bottom would qualify as Imperial Navy; likewise the large numbers running lengthwise,IMHO, should be prima facie evidence of Imperial Navy provenance.

Beyond that, I would think that a recognizable Navy property mark would also substantiate Imperial navy, but thats about as far as I would go.

Damn, these Navy guns are interesting!
Tom A.

Big Norm · 04-30-2003, 05:48 PM

Thanks Don,
I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. I have a source that has 150 original wood bottoms only. I told him that I would take all the navy wood bottoms that he had and he came up with seven out of his bag of tricks. I could not possibly come up with 150 original tubes. I am still negotiating but I think that I could come up with seven tubes and their guts. I just wanted to use your experience to give a priority to the bottoms that I may get.
Big Norm

Dan Clemons · 05-06-2003, 12:34 AM

How come so many Navy's have mags not numbered to the gun? If I found one that was numbered to the gun, it would look suspect to me.

<img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

04-26-2003, 02:23 PM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I'druther be lucky than smart All, Was filling out Don Hallock's Luger magazine sheet today, going through my trove of "extra" mgazines, almost all Imperial Navy. Well, I pick up one I bought at a show several years ago and note that it has a small circle of paper stuck to the spine...one of those dots with adhesive that people use to cover up the so-called offensive symbols on flea-bay. Under the sticky dot was the number 137 stamped into the spine. My '04 is SN 138. Today is a GREAT day so far. Tom A.

04-26-2003, 04:54 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	WOW Tom, Great find! Pays to see what's underneath sometimes. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-06-2003, 12:34 AM	#10
Dan Clemons User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Grants Pass, OR Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How come so many Navy's have mags not numbered to the gun? If I found one that was numbered to the gun, it would look suspect to me. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> __________________ Loving Lugers

04-26-2003, 10:59 PM	#3
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Tom, Usually, the serial number of an early 1904 Navy Luger magazine would be stamped on the wood base and not on the metal body. A 1904 Navy magazine would also be stamped with a Crown/M proof. I have observed both characteristics on the matching magazine for serial #36. Nevertheless, your discovery is exciting indeed and it might be better than the magazine that accompanied your Navy Luger as long as it is in better condition. It might be useful to study more early Navy magazines until you make a final choice. Cheers, Albert

04-27-2003, 11:20 AM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Albert, I have concentric ring, crown M mag Serial 143, so I am closing in on the target. Tom A.

04-29-2003, 12:01 PM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom A, I know that navy magazine don't necessarily have to have concentric circles. But do they necessarily have to be C/M? Do they necessarily have to have the large numbering found on all the ones that I consider navy magazines? Big Norm

04-29-2003, 12:40 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Norm, I have seen Navy mags in many, many different configurations and markings. Amnong them are: a. Concentric ring, no other markings b. Concentric Ring serial numbered large numbers lengthwise on the plug, both with and w/o Crown M c. Concentric ring serial numbered across the plug,both with and w/o Crown M d. Both b and c above with property mumbers on spine e. Concentric ring marked 9mm f. Concentric ring marked "Germany" g. Plain ring, serial numbered large numbers lengthwise, with and w/o Crown M h. Plain ring, serial numbered small numbers, with and without Crown M i. As h above with property numbers on spine j. Plain ring, property number ONLY on plug k. Plain ring, Crown M, 7.65 on plug Weimar Navy guns sport almost every configuration you can imagine. My Kreigsmarine guns have other peculiarities, but most have SN and property number on aluminum base. Tom A

04-29-2003, 10:38 PM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom, it looks as though, on Imperial Era navy Lugers, just about anything goes as long as its a wood bottom. I can not see an exception in your list. So lets go the other direction. If an original mag has concentric circles and all else ignored, would that make that magazine an Imperial Era navy magazine? How about if the numbering was large, going either vertical or horizontally and all else ignored, would that make that magazine an Imperial Era navy magazine? Big Norm

04-30-2003, 07:32 AM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Norm, I think that since there were concentric ring wood bottoms used in commercial guns through the 1920,s, there has to be something more definitive to base a claim of Imperial Navy upon. For certain, a Crown M on any type bottom would qualify as Imperial Navy; likewise the large numbers running lengthwise,IMHO, should be prima facie evidence of Imperial Navy provenance. Beyond that, I would think that a recognizable Navy property mark would also substantiate Imperial navy, but thats about as far as I would go. Damn, these Navy guns are interesting! Tom A.

04-30-2003, 05:48 PM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks Don, I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. I have a source that has 150 original wood bottoms only. I told him that I would take all the navy wood bottoms that he had and he came up with seven out of his bag of tricks. I could not possibly come up with 150 original tubes. I am still negotiating but I think that I could come up with seven tubes and their guts. I just wanted to use your experience to give a priority to the bottoms that I may get. Big Norm