Help with Markings

Double O · 05-22-2004, 07:44 PM

Calling all Navy marking experts--- Following photos are of what I believe to be Naval markings on my 1939/42 S/N 3404 (no Suffix). I'm pretty sure the marks on the rear grip strap are Naval, as they have the "M" under the bird thingy. But what do the marks under the bbl and on the front grip strap mean?? "N417"? Any help or comments muchly appreciated!!

Ronnie

Navy · 05-22-2004, 09:24 PM

Hi Ronnie,

I don't like being the bearer of bad tidings, but I would have serious reservations about the authenticity of the markings on your pistol.

Generally speaking (there are a few exceptions, *very* few) N property numbers are on the rear grip strap...and it is a pronounced capital N, boldly struck, with the property number beneath it. I have seen a few that had a 2 digit property number adjacent to the N (Which stands for Nordsee Flotte, or the North (Baltic) Sea fleet. This tells you the gun was issued from the Naval Depot at Willemshaven.

But back to the markings. They are not of the right size or composition to be correct, in my opinion. And the Eagle M is unlike any authentic one I have ever encountered. The marking of grip straps with the eagle M stopped during the G-date production, so having the mark on a 1939 piece is out of the ordinary. The composition of the stamp looks like no Eagle M I have seen on a navy Luger.
I suspect someone who wasn't z'ackly sure of what he was doing tried to elevate the value of an otherwise nice 1939 Luger.

Tom A.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-22-2004, 09:43 PM

The Eagle M looks phoney and I am no expert. Just looks bad. The swastica has little curled ends. I know Tom knows what he is talking about...Always bad to have to tell someone these things. Jerry Burney

Evan Duke · 05-23-2004, 12:43 AM

I have seen this same proof many times, it is a
contract purchase proof that is found on specific units such as police,postal,RLB, and naval. In this case seeing that the luger is North Sea marked it is a naval contract purchase.
This is a very nice variation to have. Chuck Duke

RockinWR · 05-23-2004, 12:57 AM

Ronnie,
* Not seen one like this before. Time for a few questions if you don't mind.
* What are the acceptance stamp pair on the right receiver?? sE/63, sE/655, or ??
* Does the frame have the Mauser hump at the rear of the ears??
* Are the grips numbered 04 inside and/or are they acceptance marked with a sE?? Are they Mauser grips in shape & form??
* Does the barrel S/N agree with the receiver S/N in shape, size, font of the numbers? Is the barrel acceptance sE/63, sE655, or ??
* Is the mag Navy marked?? What type..blue or tinned colored tube and alum. or wood base plug??
TIA,
Bob

Double O · 05-23-2004, 06:16 PM

Bob,
Thanks for your questions--- I'll try to do the best I can.

1. The acceptance stamps on the right receiver are two large E/63's followed by the Eagle proof.
2. I have read of the "Mauser Hump", but have not been able to figure this out.

Hopefully one of you can educate me on this.
3. I don't think the grips are original to the pistol,

and appear to be Erfurt s/n 19. Couldn't tell you the diff between Mauser grips and others.
4. Re: the bbl. The acceptance stamp is SMALL E/63 on the left side, and Small eagle proof on the right. The bbl S/N and receiver S/N match well in size and font. I would say that there is a difference in the blue from the bbl and the receiver. The bbl is brighter and higher polished than the receiver.
5. The mag is NOT navy marked. It is blue, Alum base S/N 4542, looks like a "t" suffix,with small E/63 acceptance mark.

Hope this helps.----

Ronnie

lugerholsterrepair · 05-23-2004, 07:44 PM

Chuck Duke says: I have seen this same proof many times, it is a
contract purchase proof that is found on specific units such as police,postal,RLB, and naval. In this case seeing that the luger is North Sea marked it is a naval contract purchase.
This is a very nice variation to have. Chuck Duke

Chuck, could you please point out where we might see this proof published anywhere? Costanzo does not seem to be as familiar with it as you are.

This mark is phoney baloney for a number of reasons.
The Nazi's never placed the swastica in a teardrop. It was always a perfect circle on acceptance marks.
The Navy M was always in a capital letter, never in lower case. The n was often in lower case but not the M.
The swastica is always perfectly formed, the one shown is not crossing in the center exactly and there are little curly ends. Not right my Friends.
So Chuck, please let us know if I am wrong. I love to be proven wrong and if so, you will get a sincere apology. Jerry Burney

Navy · 05-23-2004, 08:44 PM

All,

I did a literature search as well as examining my personal collection and talking with other members of the Navy Luger Cabal.

Consensus: Ain't no way this is righteous.

Life is like that sometimes, I am sad to say.

Tom A.

blayne · 05-23-2004, 08:57 PM

Evan, can you tell us where or why you beleive it is good? (and not meaning to put you on the spot)???

If you have other serial numbers of guns like this, I'd like to hear that?

Thanks,

Blayne

Evan Duke · 05-23-2004, 11:06 PM

Jerry, Tom, Blayne, I had a postal worker rig, the dagger dress bayonette and luger the same proof mark was on the weapon, but with a P S under the eagle. The same was true with the RBL rig I had under the eagle was a RBL. If you look in the Kenyon book on page 42 check out 3 similar proofs # 49 50 51. 51 is the tear shaped
proof. The slide proofs that were on my weapons were proofs # 46 47 48 . Chuck Duke

RockinWR · 05-24-2004, 12:42 AM

Ronnie,
* See the attached URL for a post on the "Mauser Hump".
http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin/lugerforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=00 0112
* Almost got a line on this one.
* After seeing the picture/explaination at the bottom of the attached URL post, can you now respond whether your S/N 3404ns has a "frame hump" or not.
* Also, is the inside of the frame "in the white" or blued??
* One last thing: Is there a number or numbers on the inside of the side plate?? What are they??
Thanks,
Bob

Vlim · 05-24-2004, 10:23 AM

Hmmm,

My bet:
-Kenyon did a lousy drawing of these 3 marks.
-Someone tried to boast the gun and made a lousy copy of Kenyon's lousy drawing
-The result is this gun....

All in all, I think this gun has markings of Mauser, USA, Inc.

Hope I'm wrong, though.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-25-2004, 11:45 AM

I am assuming the Kenyon book you are speaking of is Lugers at Random? This book has such lousy photo's I sold my copy many years ago. I am trying to find another just to have it in my library for occasions like this.

Could anyone scan and post these marks Chuck is talking about? I would love to see them. Jerry Burney

Thor · 05-25-2004, 11:51 AM

take a look in our technical section, all the markings are there. I really dont see anything like that marking in there. Proofs Page 1
Proofs Page 2
Proofs Page 3
Proofs Page 4
Proofs Page 5
Proofs Page 6

lugerholsterrepair · 05-25-2004, 02:59 PM

Thor, Thanks, but I have Costanzo's book and can look at every mark known to man but for some reason chuck thinks these specific marks in "Lugers at Random" Pg. 50-51 substantiate his position.

Can anyone scan this and send it to me or post it here? I would appreciate it.

Many thanks Ted, Jerry

Thor · 05-25-2004, 03:14 PM

Page 50 and 51 in my LAR are about a 1899/1900 SWISS so I am lost.........as usual!! Okay, I read the post, I will get you a close up of those in about 30 minutes, I am salt bluing a Black Widow at the moment!

HERE you go, click on each medium size picture to see a LARGE one!
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Proof2samp.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Proof2samp.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Proof1samp.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Proof1samp.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

lugerholsterrepair · 05-25-2004, 07:43 PM

Now I remember why I sold this book....

Jeez Chuck, you are putting me on right? You are trying to tell me the Eagle L,F and C proofs have anything to do with the spurious Navy marking we are discussing? You think there is a teardrop here somewhere? These crappy drawings have led you on my Friend....I have many Eagle L items and the swastica is always placed in a perfect circle as is the rest of these, K,F, and C. Besides which the Eagle is nowhere near the same.

If this is the best you can come up with I am afraid there is little more to discuss concerning this marks authenticity. It isn't right in many ways. I believe it is an attempt by the Americanish hobby Society to rip some poor guy off.

Chuck, Care to back up and tell me again why this is authentic? Jerry Burney

Ted, I thank you so much my Friend for taking the time and trouble to post these pages. It has been more than enlightening to me.

Thor · 05-25-2004, 08:00 PM

Jerry, I would do almost anything for you brother, but there is no way in heck that I am jumping out of that airplane! You guys are braver than me!
The thought scares the living daylights out of me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 05-25-2004, 08:10 PM

Guys...

Wasn't the Duke's page reference page no. 42...?

I am away from my library...so cannot help until Thursday...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Thor · 05-25-2004, 08:16 PM

Proofs 49, 50 and 51 are from page 42

05-22-2004, 07:44 PM	#1
Double O RIP Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: High Plains of Texas Posts: 45 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help with Markings Calling all Navy marking experts--- Following photos are of what I believe to be Naval markings on my 1939/42 S/N 3404 (no Suffix). I'm pretty sure the marks on the rear grip strap are Naval, as they have the "M" under the bird thingy. But what do the marks under the bbl and on the front grip strap mean?? "N417"? Any help or comments muchly appreciated!! Ronnie

05-22-2004, 09:43 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	The Eagle M looks phoney and I am no expert. Just looks bad. The swastica has little curled ends. I know Tom knows what he is talking about...Always bad to have to tell someone these things. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-23-2004, 07:44 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Chuck Duke says: I have seen this same proof many times, it is a contract purchase proof that is found on specific units such as police,postal,RLB, and naval. In this case seeing that the luger is North Sea marked it is a naval contract purchase. This is a very nice variation to have. Chuck Duke Chuck, could you please point out where we might see this proof published anywhere? Costanzo does not seem to be as familiar with it as you are. This mark is phoney baloney for a number of reasons. The Nazi's never placed the swastica in a teardrop. It was always a perfect circle on acceptance marks. The Navy M was always in a capital letter, never in lower case. The n was often in lower case but not the M. The swastica is always perfectly formed, the one shown is not crossing in the center exactly and there are little curly ends. Not right my Friends. So Chuck, please let us know if I am wrong. I love to be proven wrong and if so, you will get a sincere apology. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-25-2004, 11:45 AM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	I am assuming the Kenyon book you are speaking of is Lugers at Random? This book has such lousy photo's I sold my copy many years ago. I am trying to find another just to have it in my library for occasions like this. Could anyone scan and post these marks Chuck is talking about? I would love to see them. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-25-2004, 11:51 AM	#14
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	take a look in our technical section, all the markings are there. I really dont see anything like that marking in there. Proofs Page 1 Proofs Page 2 Proofs Page 3 Proofs Page 4 Proofs Page 5 Proofs Page 6 __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

05-22-2004, 09:24 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Ronnie, I don't like being the bearer of bad tidings, but I would have serious reservations about the authenticity of the markings on your pistol. Generally speaking (there are a few exceptions, very few) N property numbers are on the rear grip strap...and it is a pronounced capital N, boldly struck, with the property number beneath it. I have seen a few that had a 2 digit property number adjacent to the N (Which stands for Nordsee Flotte, or the North (Baltic) Sea fleet. This tells you the gun was issued from the Naval Depot at Willemshaven. But back to the markings. They are not of the right size or composition to be correct, in my opinion. And the Eagle M is unlike any authentic one I have ever encountered. The marking of grip straps with the eagle M stopped during the G-date production, so having the mark on a 1939 piece is out of the ordinary. The composition of the stamp looks like no Eagle M I have seen on a navy Luger. I suspect someone who wasn't z'ackly sure of what he was doing tried to elevate the value of an otherwise nice 1939 Luger. Tom A.

05-23-2004, 12:43 AM	#4
Evan Duke User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 52 Thanks: 2 Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts	I have seen this same proof many times, it is a contract purchase proof that is found on specific units such as police,postal,RLB, and naval. In this case seeing that the luger is North Sea marked it is a naval contract purchase. This is a very nice variation to have. Chuck Duke

05-23-2004, 12:57 AM	#5
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Ronnie, * Not seen one like this before. Time for a few questions if you don't mind. * What are the acceptance stamp pair on the right receiver?? sE/63, sE/655, or ?? * Does the frame have the Mauser hump at the rear of the ears?? * Are the grips numbered 04 inside and/or are they acceptance marked with a sE?? Are they Mauser grips in shape & form?? * Does the barrel S/N agree with the receiver S/N in shape, size, font of the numbers? Is the barrel acceptance sE/63, sE655, or ?? * Is the mag Navy marked?? What type..blue or tinned colored tube and alum. or wood base plug?? TIA, Bob

05-23-2004, 06:16 PM	#6
Double O RIP Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: High Plains of Texas Posts: 45 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Bob, Thanks for your questions--- I'll try to do the best I can. 1. The acceptance stamps on the right receiver are two large E/63's followed by the Eagle proof. 2. I have read of the "Mauser Hump", but have not been able to figure this out. Hopefully one of you can educate me on this. 3. I don't think the grips are original to the pistol, and appear to be Erfurt s/n 19. Couldn't tell you the diff between Mauser grips and others. 4. Re: the bbl. The acceptance stamp is SMALL E/63 on the left side, and Small eagle proof on the right. The bbl S/N and receiver S/N match well in size and font. I would say that there is a difference in the blue from the bbl and the receiver. The bbl is brighter and higher polished than the receiver. 5. The mag is NOT navy marked. It is blue, Alum base S/N 4542, looks like a "t" suffix,with small E/63 acceptance mark. Hope this helps.---- Ronnie

05-23-2004, 08:44 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, I did a literature search as well as examining my personal collection and talking with other members of the Navy Luger Cabal. Consensus: Ain't no way this is righteous. Life is like that sometimes, I am sad to say. Tom A.

05-23-2004, 08:57 PM	#9
blayne User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 34 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Evan, can you tell us where or why you beleive it is good? (and not meaning to put you on the spot)??? If you have other serial numbers of guns like this, I'd like to hear that? Thanks, Blayne

05-23-2004, 11:06 PM	#10
Evan Duke User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 52 Thanks: 2 Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts	Jerry, Tom, Blayne, I had a postal worker rig, the dagger dress bayonette and luger the same proof mark was on the weapon, but with a P S under the eagle. The same was true with the RBL rig I had under the eagle was a RBL. If you look in the Kenyon book on page 42 check out 3 similar proofs # 49 50 51. 51 is the tear shaped proof. The slide proofs that were on my weapons were proofs # 46 47 48 . Chuck Duke

05-24-2004, 12:42 AM	#11
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Ronnie, * See the attached URL for a post on the "Mauser Hump". http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin/lugerforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=00 0112 * Almost got a line on this one. * After seeing the picture/explaination at the bottom of the attached URL post, can you now respond whether your S/N 3404ns has a "frame hump" or not. * Also, is the inside of the frame "in the white" or blued?? * One last thing: Is there a number or numbers on the inside of the side plate?? What are they?? Thanks, Bob

05-24-2004, 10:23 AM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hmmm, My bet: -Kenyon did a lousy drawing of these 3 marks. -Someone tried to boast the gun and made a lousy copy of Kenyon's lousy drawing -The result is this gun.... All in all, I think this gun has markings of Mauser, USA, Inc. Hope I'm wrong, though.

05-25-2004, 02:59 PM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Thor, Thanks, but I have Costanzo's book and can look at every mark known to man but for some reason chuck thinks these specific marks in "Lugers at Random" Pg. 50-51 substantiate his position. Can anyone scan this and send it to me or post it here? I would appreciate it. Many thanks Ted, Jerry __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-25-2004, 03:14 PM	#16
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Page 50 and 51 in my LAR are about a 1899/1900 SWISS so I am lost.........as usual!! Okay, I read the post, I will get you a close up of those in about 30 minutes, I am salt bluing a Black Widow at the moment! HERE you go, click on each medium size picture to see a LARGE one! <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Proof2samp.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Proof2samp.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Proof1samp.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Proof1samp.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

05-25-2004, 07:43 PM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Now I remember why I sold this book.... Jeez Chuck, you are putting me on right? You are trying to tell me the Eagle L,F and C proofs have anything to do with the spurious Navy marking we are discussing? You think there is a teardrop here somewhere? These crappy drawings have led you on my Friend....I have many Eagle L items and the swastica is always placed in a perfect circle as is the rest of these, K,F, and C. Besides which the Eagle is nowhere near the same. If this is the best you can come up with I am afraid there is little more to discuss concerning this marks authenticity. It isn't right in many ways. I believe it is an attempt by the Americanish hobby Society to rip some poor guy off. Chuck, Care to back up and tell me again why this is authentic? Jerry Burney Ted, I thank you so much my Friend for taking the time and trouble to post these pages. It has been more than enlightening to me. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-25-2004, 08:00 PM	#18
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Jerry, I would do almost anything for you brother, but there is no way in heck that I am jumping out of that airplane! You guys are braver than me! The thought scares the living daylights out of me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

05-25-2004, 08:10 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Guys... Wasn't the Duke's page reference page no. 42...? I am away from my library...so cannot help until Thursday... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

05-25-2004, 08:16 PM	#20
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Proofs 49, 50 and 51 are from page 42 __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."