Very Bad News

George Anderson · 06-30-2003, 11:56 AM

I've just stumbled across a German source for modern reproductions of Navy rear toggles with 100/200 meter sights.

Ron Wood · 06-30-2003, 12:25 PM

It was only a matter of time George. With original Navy rear toggles going for $400 to $800 on auctions, somebody was bound to start making them. Are the repros exactly like originals, or are they marked/altered to preclude faking (fat chance)?

John Sabato · 06-30-2003, 01:02 PM

Thanks for reporting this breaking news and we need much more information please George... Photos if possible...

I don't believe keeping this information quiet will prevent any potential wrongdoing... only delay it.

Those in this hobby with integrity deserve to be kept informed ...those without integrity will practice their deception regardless...

The more we know about these sights and the source, and the farther we disseminate the information, the easier it will be to identify boosting in this hobby...thus sustaining the value in guns we already know to be genuine.

George Anderson · 06-30-2003, 02:34 PM

Fellas, I'm thinking about it...maybe I should sit on the details until I've sold my Navies and the checks have cleared. I will come back with details shortly but I can tell you this. I saw the first of these sold as original at a premium. They look to be perfect and are unmarked except for range calibration. They are offered at about $400 equivalent.

Pete Ebbink · 06-30-2003, 07:30 PM

Hello George,

It would be great if you could get as many details as possible; so folks everywhere can look out for these modern-day Navy toggles...and not get fooled.

Setting the issue of faked/forged/boosted Navies aside for a minute, there might be a "secondary" market for these $ 400.00 items.

Some of us folks might never have a chance and/or the money to get a real Navy. And if we did, would we want to shoot her...?

But there may be a market to take a shooter luger with a replacement 6" 9mm bbl (say, for around $ 600-700), then buy on of these "new" Navy toggles and end up being able to shoot a pseudo "Navy" for around $ 1000.00 or so...

I suspect this might be another reason someone is bringing these Navy toggles to the marketplace...

Personally, I have a nice 1920 Commerical shooter that I now have around $ 900 tied up (price of gun originally plus a grip upgrade and a $ 20.00 receiver-fork alignment job...)...I would love the chance to throw another $ 400.00 at her and end up with a fun "Navy" shooter. The last built-up Navy a Forum member had for sale was advertised at $ 2500.00...so maybe these $ 400.00 puppies will find a market amongst shooters...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

MauserLugers · 06-30-2003, 08:18 PM

Hi Pete,
God, you have a good outlook on these! And stating: "I suspect this might be another reason someone is bringing these Navy toggles to the marketplace...", is giving the benifet of doubt to say the least. Just to help a few souls to have a navy, huh? What are these guys, angels?

These rear navy toggles are being made in Germany and are on e-bay right now. They are advertised as exact reproductions. They are going to be sold by the 100's to dealers or enhancers (being nice) and 95 out of 100 will end up being represented as being an original navy. One of the reasons they are being sold as just the toggle is these guys don't want to get into any trouble as being the fakers. You will find more fake navies than you care to in about 6 months.

You're free to buy what you want, so go for it. I don't want to hear how bad fakes are or how terrible it is that another would be collector got taken from anyone who is supporting this type of stuff. It is going to totally ruin our hobby and will make a real navy so expense that only a very few of the very rich will be able to afford them and the new collectors will be so disgruntle that they won't bother to even consider a navy in the future.

Just my opinion and I'm probably wrong about it. -- Bill

Pete Ebbink · 06-30-2003, 08:39 PM

Hello Bill,

No. I do not think these folks are angels. I think they are pretty much "snakes"...

But I think their "business plan" factored in at least two markets...1) those boosters/forgers, and 2) shooting enthusiasts...

Just trying to see the 'upside' in any bad news that comes along...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 06-30-2003, 08:39 PM

Bill, you won't see me collecting Navies...

Unless I buy it from a known source that knows what they are talking about...

Ed

John D. · 06-30-2003, 08:48 PM

Pete,

You are kidding - RIGHT???? I've seen more forged Krieghoff's then most folks have seen "real" Kriegs. My guess is that the Navy collectors will be as pessimistic as HK collectors.

My guess - is that about "1%" that are sold/ installed will be designated and destined for "shooting enthusiasts". If everyone played by the same rules - I would agree with you - but when a "shooter" will get about "$700" - and a "Navy" about 5X that price - my guess is something else will occur.

IF the manufacturer WANTED to protect collectors - THEY could put a "mark" on the sight that could distinguish it as a new production - some mark that wouldn't interfere with the "shooters" market.

But guess what - my guess is they won't - as they understand the market for forgeries.....

Bill is "right on".....

Luke · 07-01-2003, 06:16 AM

At the risk of repeating an earlier post . . .

After buying three (3) fake 1916-17 Navy Lugers from well known dealers and returning all of them, I have given up on EVER owning a true, authentic Navy. These three fakes ranged from "pretty good" to "almost perfect" and I am not even sure the dealer knew that the best one was bogus. I was able to spot it, thanks to help by Tom Armstrong.

Sad . . . . but that's what has already happened to the this market. I can afford a Navy, but I can't afford to throw away 3 to 4 thousand dollars on a fake.

Hope Pete is right and all of these new sights wind up on Navy "shooters" but I have my doubts.

Luke

Frank · 07-01-2003, 10:46 AM

Hi Luke, I know someone that has a true blue 1917 Navy. I don't think he is trying to sell it, but when he does, do you want me to get in touch with you?

Pete Ebbink · 07-01-2003, 12:36 PM

Hello John D.,

I think I have to say that I agree with all you, Bill M, and George have said...sorry state of affairs with Navy lugers.

But these rear toggles are now out there, so here is what I think could be done :

1. Have folks like Tom. A, Luke, Dan Clemons, Silvio, etc. compile a photo essay in the Member's Gallery titled "How To Spot A Fake Navy Luger". I am sure decent jpeg photos have gone back and forth amongst these folks when they were helping each other determine if a Navy was real or bogus...why not complie all those bogus photos and share that info. with others on the LF...? Added text and arrows would even be better than just photos...

This photo essay could just focus on the technical details of what was "not right" with a particular gun...such a gallery certainly would help potential Navy buyers protect their monies until a better Navy luger book comes out (hopefully by Tom A. in the not-to-distant future...).

2. For those of us shooters that will probably chase down one of these modern-day Navy rear toggles, there is nothing preventing us to mark, stamp, or engrave our names and date-installed on the bottom surface of this "added" piece; which would alert future owners of our shooter pistol that this was a non-original part...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Thor · 07-01-2003, 01:08 PM

Or perhaps a Thor mark on the bottom of the link if I work on one of these? I am absolutely sure that I will get one of these type of projects. I always mark my restorations and I keep a log of guns I work on (without ownership attached to it) that way I can tell anybody if I have worked on a particular gun (assuming someone hasnt messed with the serials, which is always a possibly from other sources (a Federal Crime)) Someone can write me and say did you work on 1917 DWM sn XXXX "a" and I can say yes I did, or no I didnt. IF all restorers would do this, it might help some.

Luke · 07-01-2003, 04:18 PM

Frank -

I note that you said "when" and not "if." Is there a message here?

Another thought: Have you really examined that one closely? With all the bogus Navy Lugers out there . . . . . . who knows? <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

Luke

MauserLugers · 07-01-2003, 04:29 PM

Hi Pete,
Your photo gallery is a very terrible idea, as the fakers will look at it also and fix there mistakes and then what are you (we) gonna do?

Besides, to actually tell something about a really good fake you have to have hands on examinations.

Luke just wrote above just how good some of these already are, so helping these guys out with details on how to fix their guns isn't a good idea in my opinion. It's one thing to write a book explaining what correct proofs and markings are, and entirely a different thing to start explaining what to look for in fakes. In my opinion, this would do more harm than good.

My advise, as I've stated on this forum before, is for a potential buyer to get an opinion from another collector near him that he trusts, if he has any doubts on what he is buying. An evening drive to consult or a couple of phone calls is cheap compared to purchasing a fake. Also, as stated before, you can read all the books and look at all the pictures, but until you actually look at the piece, handle it, and learn what you're looking for, you're going to get fooled.

Word of mouth is also a good way to curb some of this. Almost all advanced collectors know who is re-strawing their Lugers, touching them up, fixing the grip screws, and making fakes, and they will not deal with these people under any circumstances. They always have a gut feeling that no matter how honest one of their pieces is, that something has been enhanced. This forum has spread the word but by doing so has raised a lot of concerns by a few who instead of listening and learning have tried to defend. So, if you buy from someone who has had some problems with other collectors and you get stung, tough luck. Why do you think one of the questions most collectors have when looking at a Luger is: "Who did you get this piece from?"

Again, just my opinion, so take it for what you think it is worth. -- Bill

mauro · 07-01-2003, 04:42 PM

Hello,
please look at the following item on ebay.
I hope this can help.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=40820

Ciao
Mauro

Luke · 07-01-2003, 04:55 PM

The link referenced by Mauro provides six (6) good quality photographs from different angles.

Hope we have a Navy expert who is willing to examine these for detail variations which could be used to detect a bogus Navy made from one of these.

Luke

Edward Tinker · 07-01-2003, 05:29 PM

Luke, I saved the auction and photos into my "Assorted Luger Pictures" folder on my hard drive. I don't know a thing about Navies, but this will be good to keep.

My German is not the best, but I can figure this out just fine:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Genaue Kopie vom Original !<hr /></blockquote>Ed

Thor · 07-01-2003, 05:46 PM

I noticed that the picture on the upper screen has a coarser groove pattern on the upper side than does the one shown in the series of 6 photos?

MauserLugers · 07-01-2003, 06:39 PM

Hi,
Looked at the pictures on e-bay and the toggle look very good compared to an original. Slight differences, but no tell, tell signs that I noticed. The only way you will be able to detect these is if they have a little trouble fitting them. That was one of the problems on these fakes before. My understanding is that you can also have them numbered to meet your needs. Great huh!!!!! -- Bill

06-30-2003, 11:56 AM	#1
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Very Bad News I've just stumbled across a German source for modern reproductions of Navy rear toggles with 100/200 meter sights.

06-30-2003, 12:25 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	It was only a matter of time George. With original Navy rear toggles going for $400 to $800 on auctions, somebody was bound to start making them. Are the repros exactly like originals, or are they marked/altered to preclude faking (fat chance)? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-30-2003, 01:02 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Thanks for reporting this breaking news and we need much more information please George... Photos if possible... I don't believe keeping this information quiet will prevent any potential wrongdoing... only delay it. Those in this hobby with integrity deserve to be kept informed ...those without integrity will practice their deception regardless... The more we know about these sights and the source, and the farther we disseminate the information, the easier it will be to identify boosting in this hobby...thus sustaining the value in guns we already know to be genuine. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-30-2003, 08:39 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Bill, you won't see me collecting Navies... Unless I buy it from a known source that knows what they are talking about... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-01-2003, 06:16 AM	#10
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	At the risk of repeating an earlier post . . . After buying three (3) fake 1916-17 Navy Lugers from well known dealers and returning all of them, I have given up on EVER owning a true, authentic Navy. These three fakes ranged from "pretty good" to "almost perfect" and I am not even sure the dealer knew that the best one was bogus. I was able to spot it, thanks to help by Tom Armstrong. Sad . . . . but that's what has already happened to the this market. I can afford a Navy, but I can't afford to throw away 3 to 4 thousand dollars on a fake. Hope Pete is right and all of these new sights wind up on Navy "shooters" but I have my doubts. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-30-2003, 02:34 PM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Fellas, I'm thinking about it...maybe I should sit on the details until I've sold my Navies and the checks have cleared. I will come back with details shortly but I can tell you this. I saw the first of these sold as original at a premium. They look to be perfect and are unmarked except for range calibration. They are offered at about $400 equivalent.

06-30-2003, 07:30 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello George, It would be great if you could get as many details as possible; so folks everywhere can look out for these modern-day Navy toggles...and not get fooled. Setting the issue of faked/forged/boosted Navies aside for a minute, there might be a "secondary" market for these $ 400.00 items. Some of us folks might never have a chance and/or the money to get a real Navy. And if we did, would we want to shoot her...? But there may be a market to take a shooter luger with a replacement 6" 9mm bbl (say, for around $ 600-700), then buy on of these "new" Navy toggles and end up being able to shoot a pseudo "Navy" for around $ 1000.00 or so... I suspect this might be another reason someone is bringing these Navy toggles to the marketplace... Personally, I have a nice 1920 Commerical shooter that I now have around $ 900 tied up (price of gun originally plus a grip upgrade and a $ 20.00 receiver-fork alignment job...)...I would love the chance to throw another $ 400.00 at her and end up with a fun "Navy" shooter. The last built-up Navy a Forum member had for sale was advertised at $ 2500.00...so maybe these $ 400.00 puppies will find a market amongst shooters... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-30-2003, 08:18 PM	#6
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Pete, God, you have a good outlook on these! And stating: "I suspect this might be another reason someone is bringing these Navy toggles to the marketplace...", is giving the benifet of doubt to say the least. Just to help a few souls to have a navy, huh? What are these guys, angels? These rear navy toggles are being made in Germany and are on e-bay right now. They are advertised as exact reproductions. They are going to be sold by the 100's to dealers or enhancers (being nice) and 95 out of 100 will end up being represented as being an original navy. One of the reasons they are being sold as just the toggle is these guys don't want to get into any trouble as being the fakers. You will find more fake navies than you care to in about 6 months. You're free to buy what you want, so go for it. I don't want to hear how bad fakes are or how terrible it is that another would be collector got taken from anyone who is supporting this type of stuff. It is going to totally ruin our hobby and will make a real navy so expense that only a very few of the very rich will be able to afford them and the new collectors will be so disgruntle that they won't bother to even consider a navy in the future. Just my opinion and I'm probably wrong about it. -- Bill

06-30-2003, 08:48 PM	#9
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Pete, You are kidding - RIGHT???? I've seen more forged Krieghoff's then most folks have seen "real" Kriegs. My guess is that the Navy collectors will be as pessimistic as HK collectors. My guess - is that about "1%" that are sold/ installed will be designated and destined for "shooting enthusiasts". If everyone played by the same rules - I would agree with you - but when a "shooter" will get about "$700" - and a "Navy" about 5X that price - my guess is something else will occur. IF the manufacturer WANTED to protect collectors - THEY could put a "mark" on the sight that could distinguish it as a new production - some mark that wouldn't interfere with the "shooters" market. But guess what - my guess is they won't - as they understand the market for forgeries..... Bill is "right on".....

07-01-2003, 10:46 AM	#11
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Luke, I know someone that has a true blue 1917 Navy. I don't think he is trying to sell it, but when he does, do you want me to get in touch with you?

07-01-2003, 12:36 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello John D., I think I have to say that I agree with all you, Bill M, and George have said...sorry state of affairs with Navy lugers. But these rear toggles are now out there, so here is what I think could be done : 1. Have folks like Tom. A, Luke, Dan Clemons, Silvio, etc. compile a photo essay in the Member's Gallery titled "How To Spot A Fake Navy Luger". I am sure decent jpeg photos have gone back and forth amongst these folks when they were helping each other determine if a Navy was real or bogus...why not complie all those bogus photos and share that info. with others on the LF...? Added text and arrows would even be better than just photos... This photo essay could just focus on the technical details of what was "not right" with a particular gun...such a gallery certainly would help potential Navy buyers protect their monies until a better Navy luger book comes out (hopefully by Tom A. in the not-to-distant future...). 2. For those of us shooters that will probably chase down one of these modern-day Navy rear toggles, there is nothing preventing us to mark, stamp, or engrave our names and date-installed on the bottom surface of this "added" piece; which would alert future owners of our shooter pistol that this was a non-original part... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-01-2003, 01:08 PM	#13
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Or perhaps a Thor mark on the bottom of the link if I work on one of these? I am absolutely sure that I will get one of these type of projects. I always mark my restorations and I keep a log of guns I work on (without ownership attached to it) that way I can tell anybody if I have worked on a particular gun (assuming someone hasnt messed with the serials, which is always a possibly from other sources (a Federal Crime)) Someone can write me and say did you work on 1917 DWM sn XXXX "a" and I can say yes I did, or no I didnt. IF all restorers would do this, it might help some. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-01-2003, 04:18 PM	#14
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Frank - I note that you said "when" and not "if." Is there a message here? Another thought: Have you really examined that one closely? With all the bogus Navy Lugers out there . . . . . . who knows? <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

07-01-2003, 04:29 PM	#15
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Pete, Your photo gallery is a very terrible idea, as the fakers will look at it also and fix there mistakes and then what are you (we) gonna do? Besides, to actually tell something about a really good fake you have to have hands on examinations. Luke just wrote above just how good some of these already are, so helping these guys out with details on how to fix their guns isn't a good idea in my opinion. It's one thing to write a book explaining what correct proofs and markings are, and entirely a different thing to start explaining what to look for in fakes. In my opinion, this would do more harm than good. My advise, as I've stated on this forum before, is for a potential buyer to get an opinion from another collector near him that he trusts, if he has any doubts on what he is buying. An evening drive to consult or a couple of phone calls is cheap compared to purchasing a fake. Also, as stated before, you can read all the books and look at all the pictures, but until you actually look at the piece, handle it, and learn what you're looking for, you're going to get fooled. Word of mouth is also a good way to curb some of this. Almost all advanced collectors know who is re-strawing their Lugers, touching them up, fixing the grip screws, and making fakes, and they will not deal with these people under any circumstances. They always have a gut feeling that no matter how honest one of their pieces is, that something has been enhanced. This forum has spread the word but by doing so has raised a lot of concerns by a few who instead of listening and learning have tried to defend. So, if you buy from someone who has had some problems with other collectors and you get stung, tough luck. Why do you think one of the questions most collectors have when looking at a Luger is: "Who did you get this piece from?" Again, just my opinion, so take it for what you think it is worth. -- Bill

07-01-2003, 04:42 PM	#16
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Hello, please look at the following item on ebay. I hope this can help. http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=40820 Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

07-01-2003, 04:55 PM	#17
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	The link referenced by Mauro provides six (6) good quality photographs from different angles. Hope we have a Navy expert who is willing to examine these for detail variations which could be used to detect a bogus Navy made from one of these. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

07-01-2003, 05:29 PM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Luke, I saved the auction and photos into my "Assorted Luger Pictures" folder on my hard drive. I don't know a thing about Navies, but this will be good to keep. My German is not the best, but I can figure this out just fine: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Genaue Kopie vom Original !</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-01-2003, 05:46 PM	#19
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I noticed that the picture on the upper screen has a coarser groove pattern on the upper side than does the one shown in the series of 6 photos? __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-01-2003, 06:39 PM	#20
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, Looked at the pictures on e-bay and the toggle look very good compared to an original. Slight differences, but no tell, tell signs that I noticed. The only way you will be able to detect these is if they have a little trouble fitting them. That was one of the problems on these fakes before. My understanding is that you can also have them numbered to meet your needs. Great huh!!!!! -- Bill