1913 DWM

Nimrod · 02-17-2003, 09:24 AM

Gentlemen,
First hello! Thank you for letting come here.
I would like to know any information and possible worth of this pistol.

Toggle Insciption,- DWM 45
Chamber Inscription,- 1913
Toggle Knob,- squared and Knurled
Grip safty,- no
Stock lug, - no
Caliber, - 9mm
Grip type,- walnut, checkered
Thumb safty,- rearward safe, GESICHERT
Markings,- all matching parts marked 45 includeing grips.
left side of chamber has 2045
right side of chamber has #16 proof marks(from this sites markings page)
Barrel has #14 proof mark, 2045, a ,8,82
MADE IN GERMANY stamped on left side of reciever just below s/n on left of chamber.
Front of reciever has 2045 , a
Right side of reciever just above trigger has a mark I cannot tell what it is.
Left edge of extractor has #14 proof
I measure a 3 15/16 tappered barrel
Sights are a fixed rear and dove tailed front
Magazine bottom plug is wood and magazine has no markings at all.

Gun retains 98% blue
At least 75% straw
Bore is excelent
Grips are worn but in good shape, no missing wood.

Any info on this gun will be appreciated! Thank you!

Edward Tinker · 02-17-2003, 11:06 AM

Welcome Richard!

I have time a for a couple of quick comments:
Toggle shows the manufacturer DWM, 45 is last two of the serial number
1913, should be year of manufacturer
My friends Luke and Ron will be interested, as it does not have a stock lug and believe it never did.
The 8,82 is measurement of the land to land for rifling

Take a close look, is it proof #16? It makes a big difference.

Can you provide scans or pictures?

Ed

Nimrod · 02-17-2003, 11:46 AM

I probably am wrong on the proof but it was the only one that comes close to looking like what I see. I have a digital camara and will try to post pic's.

Nimrod · 02-17-2003, 12:00 PM

Edward Tinker · 02-17-2003, 12:33 PM

Good to go, GREAT PICS!

Those are DWM Army test proof on the far right and the rest are German army Inspection Stamps.

Very nice example, I like it a lot! I "think" the Made in Germany means it was imported, probably after the war, but I am not sure.

Ron Wood · 02-17-2003, 12:55 PM

The pictures are very good. The Luger is a 1920's rework of a 1913 Military and marked for commercial sale outside of Germany. The crispness of the receiver serial number and the proof marks would indicate that pistol was in pretty good shape when it was reworked. Possibly the rework only consisted of the stamp MADE IN GERMANY before being released for sale.

According to Costanzo, the receiver proof on your Luger is a 1913 DWM proof, so Ed gave you the correct info. You are correct that the proofs do look like #16 and not like #15. The "Markings" guidelines in the Technical Information section are not necessarily comprehensive in content. The proof #15 is only one of the correct proofs for DWM from 1915-1918 so other variations in DWM proofs, including earlier Lugers like yours, will be found.

The mark above the trigger on the right side of the frame is an Erfurt proof placed there when the hold-open device was added after the pistol was manufactured. This is an authorized modification and in no way detracts from the value of the piece.

Nimrod · 02-17-2003, 01:29 PM

Amazeing the storys these things can tell with a little research. Thank you for telling me what I have, I otherwise would have had no idea.

Nimrod · 02-18-2003, 06:56 AM

Anyway/where I can get a ball park figure on the worth of this piece?

Pete Ebbink · 02-18-2003, 07:24 AM

Hello Ron,

Is it odd that this DWM pistol had an Erfurt proof added with the hold-open modification ? Did DWM not do this modification, themselves ?

Or was Erfurt a designated subcontractor to do this work ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 02-18-2003, 07:51 AM

Erfurt, as the military arsenal, performed the hold-open modification on all Lugers. A bit like what we call "depot level maintenance" today. Erfurt Arsenal was a government entity and therefore would not be considered a "subcontractor".

Ron Wood · 02-18-2003, 08:01 AM

Nimrod,
It would appear from your photos that your 1913 retains its original finish. It would have to be examined first-hand by an experienced individual to determine if this is true. An original 1913 Military in 98% condition will be in the ballpark of $1100 plus or minus. The MADE IN GERMANY marking will usually devalue the piece somewhat since it is not an "as issued" marking.

Nimrod · 02-18-2003, 08:22 AM

Ok, I paid $500 for the piece and wanted to make sure it was worth atleast that much. Thank you.

02-17-2003, 11:06 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Welcome Richard! I have time a for a couple of quick comments: Toggle shows the manufacturer DWM, 45 is last two of the serial number 1913, should be year of manufacturer My friends Luke and Ron will be interested, as it does not have a stock lug and believe it never did. The 8,82 is measurement of the land to land for rifling Take a close look, is it proof #16? It makes a big difference. Can you provide scans or pictures? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-17-2003, 12:33 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Good to go, GREAT PICS! Those are DWM Army test proof on the far right and the rest are German army Inspection Stamps. Very nice example, I like it a lot! I "think" the Made in Germany means it was imported, probably after the war, but I am not sure. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-17-2003, 12:55 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	The pictures are very good. The Luger is a 1920's rework of a 1913 Military and marked for commercial sale outside of Germany. The crispness of the receiver serial number and the proof marks would indicate that pistol was in pretty good shape when it was reworked. Possibly the rework only consisted of the stamp MADE IN GERMANY before being released for sale. According to Costanzo, the receiver proof on your Luger is a 1913 DWM proof, so Ed gave you the correct info. You are correct that the proofs do look like #16 and not like #15. The "Markings" guidelines in the Technical Information section are not necessarily comprehensive in content. The proof #15 is only one of the correct proofs for DWM from 1915-1918 so other variations in DWM proofs, including earlier Lugers like yours, will be found. The mark above the trigger on the right side of the frame is an Erfurt proof placed there when the hold-open device was added after the pistol was manufactured. This is an authorized modification and in no way detracts from the value of the piece. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-18-2003, 07:51 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Erfurt, as the military arsenal, performed the hold-open modification on all Lugers. A bit like what we call "depot level maintenance" today. Erfurt Arsenal was a government entity and therefore would not be considered a "subcontractor". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-18-2003, 08:01 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Nimrod, It would appear from your photos that your 1913 retains its original finish. It would have to be examined first-hand by an experienced individual to determine if this is true. An original 1913 Military in 98% condition will be in the ballpark of $1100 plus or minus. The MADE IN GERMANY marking will usually devalue the piece somewhat since it is not an "as issued" marking. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-17-2003, 09:24 AM	#1
Nimrod User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1913 DWM Gentlemen, First hello! Thank you for letting come here. I would like to know any information and possible worth of this pistol. Toggle Insciption,- DWM 45 Chamber Inscription,- 1913 Toggle Knob,- squared and Knurled Grip safty,- no Stock lug, - no Caliber, - 9mm Grip type,- walnut, checkered Thumb safty,- rearward safe, GESICHERT Markings,- all matching parts marked 45 includeing grips. left side of chamber has 2045 right side of chamber has #16 proof marks(from this sites markings page) Barrel has #14 proof mark, 2045, a ,8,82 MADE IN GERMANY stamped on left side of reciever just below s/n on left of chamber. Front of reciever has 2045 , a Right side of reciever just above trigger has a mark I cannot tell what it is. Left edge of extractor has #14 proof I measure a 3 15/16 tappered barrel Sights are a fixed rear and dove tailed front Magazine bottom plug is wood and magazine has no markings at all. Gun retains 98% blue At least 75% straw Bore is excelent Grips are worn but in good shape, no missing wood. Any info on this gun will be appreciated! Thank you!

02-17-2003, 11:46 AM	#3
Nimrod User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I probably am wrong on the proof but it was the only one that comes close to looking like what I see. I have a digital camara and will try to post pic's.

02-17-2003, 12:00 PM	#4
Nimrod User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

02-17-2003, 01:29 PM	#7
Nimrod User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Amazeing the storys these things can tell with a little research. Thank you for telling me what I have, I otherwise would have had no idea.

02-18-2003, 06:56 AM	#8
Nimrod User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Anyway/where I can get a ball park figure on the worth of this piece?

02-18-2003, 07:24 AM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Ron, Is it odd that this DWM pistol had an Erfurt proof added with the hold-open modification ? Did DWM not do this modification, themselves ? Or was Erfurt a designated subcontractor to do this work ? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-18-2003, 08:22 AM	#12
Nimrod User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok, I paid $500 for the piece and wanted to make sure it was worth atleast that much. Thank you.