Recoil springs - testing

Stu · 11-26-2002, 11:43 AM

I'm thinking of trying out a 30 commercial I have but suspect the recoils spring is weak.

I base that comment on the fact that if you gently lower the toggle until the sear catches, the recoil spring doesn't have enough force to then close the toggle without manual assistance, (same for my byf). Doing the same with my Mitchell results in positive closure of the toggle. Is this a valid rule of thumb test ?

Could anyone suggest the right weight of Wolff spring for the 30 and 9mm, (shooting commercial ammo) ? I've read a number of posts on the topic but not really been able to reach a conclusion.

Thanks all.

Thor · 11-26-2002, 11:52 AM

My opinion is the 36# spring sold by Wolff is just about right for a 4" 9mm shooting standard American Ammo. If you shoot only +p stuff the 38# spring might be the way to go. I shoot two handloads with 124 gr, one at around 1150 fps for the standard loading and the 124 at 1250 fps for Artillerys or if a client is specing that is the load to design the rework around. ALL and I repeat all springs from Wolff are really for the 9mm and will have to be cut to make most 30 Luger ammo work unless you hand load then the 36 # is my choice. It is pretty hard to get a 30 to close like you sugguest with a spring that is weak enough to function right with the weak 30 ammo on the market (FIOCCHI 30 Luger) A good spring in a 9 should do this though! Tom Heller mentioned that the ORIGINAL Luger springs (not the same as Wolff) had around 16 coils and a 9mm of the same type spring (same wire, same wrap rate) would have about 19 coils. The 30 was designed around a weaker spring IMO.

Stu · 11-26-2002, 12:04 PM

Thanks Thor, I value your opinion. I'll try a #36 in each gun. I'd prefer to have a failure to cycle than batter the gun !

Should #36 prove to much in the 30 then I can always try the tired spring from the 9, then go back to the original.

I've some 30 luger, (Western X & Remington Kleanbore), from the 60's, (?), that might have a little more punch than the current stuff.

Thor · 11-26-2002, 12:16 PM

That Ammo MIGHT have TOO MUCH punch!! I would try and set the gun up for a load you can buy (or load yourself) today so you have a steady supply of ammo. Once you start, you wont be able to stop. Hugh and I both love the 30 Lugers (he has a bunch of them) I think the 1920 Commercial Luger in 30 Luger is one of the most underated SHOOTERS around, they are more plentiful than many variations and accurate and fun as heck to shoot and the bores on many are almost new! Good luck Stu!

Stu · 11-26-2002, 12:49 PM

Duly noted ! I needed an excuse to do the rounds of the local stores. Last time was looking for 38 S&W for my Webley, you can't imagine how many 'experts' desperately tried to sell me 38 special !

unspellable · 11-26-2002, 01:26 PM

Whether or not the action closes after being gently lowered onto the sear is not a valid test. It depends very much on the individual pistol. I have several in excellent working order and the results of this test are about 50/50 without much correlation with anything.

DWM factory specs for the recoil spring in a new model Luger chambered for 7.65 with barrel length between 98 mm and 150 mm are:

Outside diameter:
Min 9.90 mm or 0.38976 in
Nom 10.00 mm or 0.39370 in
Max 10.00 mm or 0.39370 in

Wire diameter:
Nom 1.40 mm or 0.05512 in

Free length:
Min: 82.50 mm or 3.24803 in
Nom: 85.00 mm or 3.34646 in
Max: 87.50 mm or 3.44488 in

Preloaded length:
Nom: 50.00 mm or 1.96850 in

Loaded length:
Nom: 34.00 mm or 1.33858 in

Preload force:
7-9 kg (sic) or 15.43 - 19.84 lbf

Loaded force:
15-16.5 kg (sic) or 33.07 - 36.38 lbf

This spring may work in some Lugers with Winchester 30 Luger ammo which is loaded somewhat lighter than the DWM load from the 1920's. The Winchester ammo will not reliably cycle my Ruger or any of three vinatge Lugers until I put a lighter spring in.

You will probably need a lighter spring for Fiocchi ammo which is loaded lighter than the Winchester. It will cycle my Interarms but fails to cycle my Ruger or any of three vintage Lugers.

If you have to cut a spring, DO NOT cut the one in the gun, besides messing up a possible original, it will result in too light a preload. The Wolff springs are over length and so lend themselves better to a little trimming.

Trim the spring a little at a time until the hold open works reliably. Put a gum wrapper against the frame under the rear toggle link extension. If the toggle extension taps it without really mashing it, you are in the right place.

Beware too light a spring failing to close the action all the way. A Luger WILL FIRE with the action almost closed but NOT LOCKED. The results do not bear thinking about.

Also, beware the spring you find in the gun to begin with. Many of them are not originals and you are liable to find anything from A to Z.

I will have more data on recoil springs at a later date.

Stu · 11-26-2002, 01:45 PM

Thanks for the tech details. time to get the calipers out.

I'll fit new springs on the basis of working down, rather than up. I'll test with one round loaded and see if I get reliable holdopen. I'll be sure to check it goes into battery each time !

Thor · 11-26-2002, 02:42 PM

Stu, as you can see it is a bit of a balancing act! Good Luck, I feel the 30 Luger is so much fun it worth it! Shame we dont have more people (and ammo) involved!

Stu · 11-26-2002, 02:53 PM

I've never shot it before, but bottleneck cartridges are a little different and should provide very reliable feeding, (SIG 357 anyone ?). For some reason I think the caliber is very 'appropriate' for the commercial guns, I know it's not, but I think it captures the flavor of the period, where this type of caliber was very popular for personal handguns.

Let's see how much it costs !

11-26-2002, 11:43 AM	#1
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Recoil springs - testing I'm thinking of trying out a 30 commercial I have but suspect the recoils spring is weak. I base that comment on the fact that if you gently lower the toggle until the sear catches, the recoil spring doesn't have enough force to then close the toggle without manual assistance, (same for my byf). Doing the same with my Mitchell results in positive closure of the toggle. Is this a valid rule of thumb test ? Could anyone suggest the right weight of Wolff spring for the 30 and 9mm, (shooting commercial ammo) ? I've read a number of posts on the topic but not really been able to reach a conclusion. Thanks all.

11-26-2002, 11:52 AM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	My opinion is the 36# spring sold by Wolff is just about right for a 4" 9mm shooting standard American Ammo. If you shoot only +p stuff the 38# spring might be the way to go. I shoot two handloads with 124 gr, one at around 1150 fps for the standard loading and the 124 at 1250 fps for Artillerys or if a client is specing that is the load to design the rework around. ALL and I repeat all springs from Wolff are really for the 9mm and will have to be cut to make most 30 Luger ammo work unless you hand load then the 36 # is my choice. It is pretty hard to get a 30 to close like you sugguest with a spring that is weak enough to function right with the weak 30 ammo on the market (FIOCCHI 30 Luger) A good spring in a 9 should do this though! Tom Heller mentioned that the ORIGINAL Luger springs (not the same as Wolff) had around 16 coils and a 9mm of the same type spring (same wire, same wrap rate) would have about 19 coils. The 30 was designed around a weaker spring IMO. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

11-26-2002, 12:16 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	That Ammo MIGHT have TOO MUCH punch!! I would try and set the gun up for a load you can buy (or load yourself) today so you have a steady supply of ammo. Once you start, you wont be able to stop. Hugh and I both love the 30 Lugers (he has a bunch of them) I think the 1920 Commercial Luger in 30 Luger is one of the most underated SHOOTERS around, they are more plentiful than many variations and accurate and fun as heck to shoot and the bores on many are almost new! Good luck Stu! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

11-26-2002, 02:42 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Stu, as you can see it is a bit of a balancing act! Good Luck, I feel the 30 Luger is so much fun it worth it! Shame we dont have more people (and ammo) involved! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

11-26-2002, 12:04 PM	#3
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Thanks Thor, I value your opinion. I'll try a #36 in each gun. I'd prefer to have a failure to cycle than batter the gun ! Should #36 prove to much in the 30 then I can always try the tired spring from the 9, then go back to the original. I've some 30 luger, (Western X & Remington Kleanbore), from the 60's, (?), that might have a little more punch than the current stuff.

11-26-2002, 12:49 PM	#5
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Duly noted ! I needed an excuse to do the rounds of the local stores. Last time was looking for 38 S&W for my Webley, you can't imagine how many 'experts' desperately tried to sell me 38 special !

11-26-2002, 01:26 PM	#6
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Whether or not the action closes after being gently lowered onto the sear is not a valid test. It depends very much on the individual pistol. I have several in excellent working order and the results of this test are about 50/50 without much correlation with anything. DWM factory specs for the recoil spring in a new model Luger chambered for 7.65 with barrel length between 98 mm and 150 mm are: Outside diameter: Min 9.90 mm or 0.38976 in Nom 10.00 mm or 0.39370 in Max 10.00 mm or 0.39370 in Wire diameter: Nom 1.40 mm or 0.05512 in Free length: Min: 82.50 mm or 3.24803 in Nom: 85.00 mm or 3.34646 in Max: 87.50 mm or 3.44488 in Preloaded length: Nom: 50.00 mm or 1.96850 in Loaded length: Nom: 34.00 mm or 1.33858 in Preload force: 7-9 kg (sic) or 15.43 - 19.84 lbf Loaded force: 15-16.5 kg (sic) or 33.07 - 36.38 lbf This spring may work in some Lugers with Winchester 30 Luger ammo which is loaded somewhat lighter than the DWM load from the 1920's. The Winchester ammo will not reliably cycle my Ruger or any of three vinatge Lugers until I put a lighter spring in. You will probably need a lighter spring for Fiocchi ammo which is loaded lighter than the Winchester. It will cycle my Interarms but fails to cycle my Ruger or any of three vintage Lugers. If you have to cut a spring, DO NOT cut the one in the gun, besides messing up a possible original, it will result in too light a preload. The Wolff springs are over length and so lend themselves better to a little trimming. Trim the spring a little at a time until the hold open works reliably. Put a gum wrapper against the frame under the rear toggle link extension. If the toggle extension taps it without really mashing it, you are in the right place. Beware too light a spring failing to close the action all the way. A Luger WILL FIRE with the action almost closed but NOT LOCKED. The results do not bear thinking about. Also, beware the spring you find in the gun to begin with. Many of them are not originals and you are liable to find anything from A to Z. I will have more data on recoil springs at a later date.

11-26-2002, 01:45 PM	#7
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Thanks for the tech details. time to get the calipers out. I'll fit new springs on the basis of working down, rather than up. I'll test with one round loaded and see if I get reliable holdopen. I'll be sure to check it goes into battery each time !

11-26-2002, 02:53 PM	#9
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I've never shot it before, but bottleneck cartridges are a little different and should provide very reliable feeding, (SIG 357 anyone ?). For some reason I think the caliber is very 'appropriate' for the commercial guns, I know it's not, but I think it captures the flavor of the period, where this type of caliber was very popular for personal handguns. Let's see how much it costs !