Luger ID

Ted G · 12-30-2002, 12:46 AM

Well here goes. I am trying to identify and what version and eventually value range of a Luger my father brought back from WWII. My father was with an engeneering batalion labled the Black Panthers near the end of the war somewhere in France when he removed the pistol and holster from a German officer they captured. The pistol is in very good condition (my opinion of course)and been kept in a cabinet since at least the early 50's. To my knowledge it has never been fired since that same time frame. All the numbers match except for part 018 (I think). The Ser# is 619b. The barrel has a second # over and perpindicular to the 619, that # is 5742. There is 1914 on the receiver, DWM on the front toggle link. On the left side on part 010 there is a proof like #14 just in front of pin 012. On the right side of the receiver there is a proof similar to #11 except the first 2 figures are like the last 2 figures of proof 12. To the left of that proof is another figure that looks similar to proof 52 except there is either a GW3 or 6W3 where the 655 is on your proof. Also on the right side of the barrel is another proof mark like those of 49-51 but there is no letter. One of the two clips is marked 619 in the wood end. The holster is in fair condition with marking from AUWAERTER&BUBECK A.G. Stuttgart dated 1934. The only referance I have looked at is the 2000 standard catalog of firearms. Thanks for any help anyone can give me. In advance, the pistol is one of the few items I have that belonged to my father and has great sentemental value and therefore is not for sale.

Edward Tinker · 12-30-2002, 12:59 AM

Great information. Can you provide pictures, to include side, top, etc or a scan of both sides?

It is really great that you want to keep this as a remembrance of your father. Keep it always, pass it along to someone that will appreciate it.

The markings under the barrel throw me off a bit, the 619b and 5742. If it is a mismatch and the possibility is strong, as one part already has been swapped out, probably in the field, it is very possible another part was also swapped.

Being marked as a 1914 DWM, the manufacturer, then it should be proofed as a WW1 made gun. Although some of the proofs sound like early Nazi proofs, pictures could help ID them.

Ed

Ted G · 12-30-2002, 01:28 AM

Ed thanks for the quick reply. Must be an owl??
The 619b is actually on the front of the frame not the barrel. Also the b is under the 619 as the frame curves from vert. to horz. Yes the sn on the barrel is confusing especially the way the 5742 is stamped on top and perpindicular to the 619 between the 6 and 1. (it is hard to tell but it could be an S742) It is also impossible to tell which one was stamped first but at closer examination it looks like the 619 was stamped after the 5742. I do have a new dig camera and will try to take and post some showing the markings. Also not mentioned earlier, both the extractor and safety are in German. No grip safety and there is a stock lug. Thanks again Ted.

Edward Tinker · 12-30-2002, 01:57 AM

Ted, forgot to say WELCOME!

The 619 definately sounds like a serial numbe, the other ?? But I've been wrong before [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Yes, up late, but not teribly, it is just after 11 PM on Pacific Time, and work is from home unless I am traveling...

George Anderson · 12-30-2002, 09:14 AM

Could the 5742 possibly be S/42?

Ted G · 12-30-2002, 12:38 PM

George. After another look with a large magnifying glass I believe you are right about it being an S/42. Late nites and weak eyes. Now what does it all mean???? Thanks George

Ted

Ted G · 12-30-2002, 02:55 PM

Tacfoley. Point noted about the posibility of Mauser having touched the pistole however I am confused by other factors. All parts except 018 are numbered correctly as either 619 or 19 on the smaller parts. Part #018 is numbered 97. The chamber is date stamped 1914. DWM on toggle link. The frame is marked 619 with a b suffix under it. Under the removable left side plate there is what appears as a K stamped into the frame. It is stamped on a curved portion and not real clear. I have two clips, one has a wood base and is also marked with the 619, the other has an aluminium base with #6050 on it. My referance (2000 standard catalog of firearms by Ned Schwing) does not allow some of these markings, like the 1914 chamber mark, and or the DWM mark in its coverage of the Mauser version. I am curious why you think you were giving me bad news. Any information at this point is helpfull. I am not a collector so value is mostly a guideline for insurance purposes but if it is a Mauser version it seems to be worth more $$$ than if it were a straight 1914 military model. (again according to my one referance book) Still looking for information!!! I will try to post pictures sometime today.

ejc · 12-30-2002, 08:07 PM

ted
I believe the s-42 on the barrel is the proof mauser put on the barrel or other parts when they replaced them I think I read this in Kenyons lugers at random I could be wrong dont have my books with me. but I have a 1917 with s-42,eagle over za and w155 on the barrel what you might want to look at is right behind the barrel is there a notch there is on mine I suspect mine was a artillery model (8" barrel) that was reworked.
the notch was there for the different style sights.

Navy · 12-31-2002, 07:10 AM

Gents,

Hate to be a pain in the ass, but strictly and precisely speaking, S/42 is NOT a proof mark. It is the code assigned Mauser by the Herreswaffenamt for marking their production. Thus it is much more analogous to a brand or trade mark vice a proof.

I have owned several guns that were W.W.I vintage and matching but had the S/42 barrel. Occasionally you will find them coded 42, but these are far less common. Magazines coded 42 seem to turn up fairly frequently, but I don't recall running across any coded S/42. go figure.

Tom A.

Lugerdoc · 12-31-2002, 08:30 AM

Ted, Without knowing how long the 1914 PO8 has been in your family, it is quite possiable that your pistol was captured during WW2 in it's present condition and the purist amoung us would urge you to leave every thing, just as is. The S/42 (as well as 42 or any Mauser waffenamp) on an unnumbered barrel, indicates to me an armour's spare barrel. So your WW1 barrel may have been replaced sometime after 1934 at a lower level facility, than the Mauser factory. This is also probably when the sear bar was exchanged. Most collectors would probably attempt to find the correct era Mauser matching part here, but with the WW2 replacement barrel, your PO8 will never be considered Original Matching, and therefore would have a lessor value than one that is. Tom H.

Navy · 12-31-2002, 11:14 AM

Venerable Tac,

Please excuse my misinterpretation.

Tom A

ejc · 12-31-2002, 12:58 PM

I make that mistake and call all marks proofs and I did not mean to repeat anyone
Ed

Navy · 12-31-2002, 11:28 PM

Veneered Tac,

I'll bet you know all the words to the old ballad, "God Bless The Bastard King of England". I might postulate that some of your forebearers are mentioned in the lyrics.

I might, but I didn't.

Happy New Year.

Tom A

Ted G · 01-01-2003, 10:21 AM

And I thought I was logging into an adult site in the hopes of learning something about Lugers.

Navy · 01-01-2003, 01:21 PM

Veneered TAC,
d
I have walked the low fields and trenchlines of the Somme on many occasions, always trying to envision what could the General Staff been thinking when they threw bodies against bunkers. Almost an entire generation of your countrymen died in that place. Not all that far from the Somme, my dad served and was/d,/ like me at that point in his life, an dddddddd

Dad is still around.

Tom A.

Navy · 01-01-2003, 07:20 PM

Veneered Tac,

You would have enjoyed very much my trip to Tyndal AFB in Panama City FLA around the end of October. I accompanied my childhood idol and beloved uncle, Mason, to a reunion of his W.W.II fighter squadron. Most of the remaining guys were in extremely good health and kept me laughing for four days. Buckets of booze, great food and 85 year old guys hitting on 30 year old dollies and. occasionally succeeding!

The stories those guys told...they were all qualified in Spits, Hurricanes, Aerocobras and Mustangs. Mason started in the RCAF then was seconded to the RAF. When the US of A entered the war, his presence was requested back in the US Army Air Corps. Any aircraft flyable was what they flew. They were known as the American Beagle Squadron and Mason along with another fellow designed the squadron insignia. Look it up on google..very cool and decidedly non-PC.

At the "formal" event sponsored by the current USAF squadron, I sat at a table with 9 guys, six of whom were aces.

I am no stranger to combat, but I was awed to be in the presence of so many bona fide American heroes in such a small space. Something about being in the presence of fellow warriors.

Tom A

12-30-2002, 12:59 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Great information. Can you provide pictures, to include side, top, etc or a scan of both sides? It is really great that you want to keep this as a remembrance of your father. Keep it always, pass it along to someone that will appreciate it. The markings under the barrel throw me off a bit, the 619b and 5742. If it is a mismatch and the possibility is strong, as one part already has been swapped out, probably in the field, it is very possible another part was also swapped. Being marked as a 1914 DWM, the manufacturer, then it should be proofed as a WW1 made gun. Although some of the proofs sound like early Nazi proofs, pictures could help ID them. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-30-2002, 01:57 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Ted, forgot to say WELCOME! The 619 definately sounds like a serial numbe, the other ?? But I've been wrong before [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Yes, up late, but not teribly, it is just after 11 PM on Pacific Time, and work is from home unless I am traveling... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-31-2002, 08:30 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Ted, Without knowing how long the 1914 PO8 has been in your family, it is quite possiable that your pistol was captured during WW2 in it's present condition and the purist amoung us would urge you to leave every thing, just as is. The S/42 (as well as 42 or any Mauser waffenamp) on an unnumbered barrel, indicates to me an armour's spare barrel. So your WW1 barrel may have been replaced sometime after 1934 at a lower level facility, than the Mauser factory. This is also probably when the sear bar was exchanged. Most collectors would probably attempt to find the correct era Mauser matching part here, but with the WW2 replacement barrel, your PO8 will never be considered Original Matching, and therefore would have a lessor value than one that is. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-30-2002, 12:46 AM	#1
Ted G User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger ID Well here goes. I am trying to identify and what version and eventually value range of a Luger my father brought back from WWII. My father was with an engeneering batalion labled the Black Panthers near the end of the war somewhere in France when he removed the pistol and holster from a German officer they captured. The pistol is in very good condition (my opinion of course)and been kept in a cabinet since at least the early 50's. To my knowledge it has never been fired since that same time frame. All the numbers match except for part 018 (I think). The Ser# is 619b. The barrel has a second # over and perpindicular to the 619, that # is 5742. There is 1914 on the receiver, DWM on the front toggle link. On the left side on part 010 there is a proof like #14 just in front of pin 012. On the right side of the receiver there is a proof similar to #11 except the first 2 figures are like the last 2 figures of proof 12. To the left of that proof is another figure that looks similar to proof 52 except there is either a GW3 or 6W3 where the 655 is on your proof. Also on the right side of the barrel is another proof mark like those of 49-51 but there is no letter. One of the two clips is marked 619 in the wood end. The holster is in fair condition with marking from AUWAERTER&BUBECK A.G. Stuttgart dated 1934. The only referance I have looked at is the 2000 standard catalog of firearms. Thanks for any help anyone can give me. In advance, the pistol is one of the few items I have that belonged to my father and has great sentemental value and therefore is not for sale.

12-30-2002, 01:28 AM	#3
Ted G User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed thanks for the quick reply. Must be an owl?? The 619b is actually on the front of the frame not the barrel. Also the b is under the 619 as the frame curves from vert. to horz. Yes the sn on the barrel is confusing especially the way the 5742 is stamped on top and perpindicular to the 619 between the 6 and 1. (it is hard to tell but it could be an S742) It is also impossible to tell which one was stamped first but at closer examination it looks like the 619 was stamped after the 5742. I do have a new dig camera and will try to take and post some showing the markings. Also not mentioned earlier, both the extractor and safety are in German. No grip safety and there is a stock lug. Thanks again Ted.

12-30-2002, 09:14 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Could the 5742 possibly be S/42?

12-30-2002, 12:38 PM	#6
Ted G User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	George. After another look with a large magnifying glass I believe you are right about it being an S/42. Late nites and weak eyes. Now what does it all mean???? Thanks George Ted

12-30-2002, 02:55 PM	#7
Ted G User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tacfoley. Point noted about the posibility of Mauser having touched the pistole however I am confused by other factors. All parts except 018 are numbered correctly as either 619 or 19 on the smaller parts. Part #018 is numbered 97. The chamber is date stamped 1914. DWM on toggle link. The frame is marked 619 with a b suffix under it. Under the removable left side plate there is what appears as a K stamped into the frame. It is stamped on a curved portion and not real clear. I have two clips, one has a wood base and is also marked with the 619, the other has an aluminium base with #6050 on it. My referance (2000 standard catalog of firearms by Ned Schwing) does not allow some of these markings, like the 1914 chamber mark, and or the DWM mark in its coverage of the Mauser version. I am curious why you think you were giving me bad news. Any information at this point is helpfull. I am not a collector so value is mostly a guideline for insurance purposes but if it is a Mauser version it seems to be worth more $$$ than if it were a straight 1914 military model. (again according to my one referance book) Still looking for information!!! I will try to post pictures sometime today.

12-30-2002, 08:07 PM	#8
ejc User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 83 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	ted I believe the s-42 on the barrel is the proof mauser put on the barrel or other parts when they replaced them I think I read this in Kenyons lugers at random I could be wrong dont have my books with me. but I have a 1917 with s-42,eagle over za and w155 on the barrel what you might want to look at is right behind the barrel is there a notch there is on mine I suspect mine was a artillery model (8" barrel) that was reworked. the notch was there for the different style sights.

12-31-2002, 07:10 AM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Gents, Hate to be a pain in the ass, but strictly and precisely speaking, S/42 is NOT a proof mark. It is the code assigned Mauser by the Herreswaffenamt for marking their production. Thus it is much more analogous to a brand or trade mark vice a proof. I have owned several guns that were W.W.I vintage and matching but had the S/42 barrel. Occasionally you will find them coded 42, but these are far less common. Magazines coded 42 seem to turn up fairly frequently, but I don't recall running across any coded S/42. go figure. Tom A.

12-31-2002, 11:14 AM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Venerable Tac, Please excuse my misinterpretation. Tom A

12-31-2002, 12:58 PM	#12
ejc User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 83 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I make that mistake and call all marks proofs and I did not mean to repeat anyone Ed

12-31-2002, 11:28 PM	#13
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Veneered Tac, I'll bet you know all the words to the old ballad, "God Bless The Bastard King of England". I might postulate that some of your forebearers are mentioned in the lyrics. I might, but I didn't. Happy New Year. Tom A

01-01-2003, 10:21 AM	#14
Ted G User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	And I thought I was logging into an adult site in the hopes of learning something about Lugers.

01-01-2003, 01:21 PM	#15
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Veneered TAC, d I have walked the low fields and trenchlines of the Somme on many occasions, always trying to envision what could the General Staff been thinking when they threw bodies against bunkers. Almost an entire generation of your countrymen died in that place. Not all that far from the Somme, my dad served and was/d,/ like me at that point in his life, an dddddddd Dad is still around. Tom A.

01-01-2003, 07:20 PM	#16
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Veneered Tac, You would have enjoyed very much my trip to Tyndal AFB in Panama City FLA around the end of October. I accompanied my childhood idol and beloved uncle, Mason, to a reunion of his W.W.II fighter squadron. Most of the remaining guys were in extremely good health and kept me laughing for four days. Buckets of booze, great food and 85 year old guys hitting on 30 year old dollies and. occasionally succeeding! The stories those guys told...they were all qualified in Spits, Hurricanes, Aerocobras and Mustangs. Mason started in the RCAF then was seconded to the RAF. When the US of A entered the war, his presence was requested back in the US Army Air Corps. Any aircraft flyable was what they flew. They were known as the American Beagle Squadron and Mason along with another fellow designed the squadron insignia. Look it up on google..very cool and decidedly non-PC. At the "formal" event sponsored by the current USAF squadron, I sat at a table with 9 guys, six of whom were aces. I am no stranger to combat, but I was awed to be in the presence of so many bona fide American heroes in such a small space. Something about being in the presence of fellow warriors. Tom A