Five Lugers in Yemen

rabbrt · 12-12-2002, 01:34 PM

Hi all,

Am a new user. I ran across five Lugers in the Souk here in Yemen and am considering a purchase(s). Thought the groupo might help me make a decision on whether or not to buy and what a 'fair' price is.

Provided below is a description of the first two (I will add the others later) as much as I could gather at the time in the shop(s) using the website guidelines:

Number 1
Toggle description: S/42 (Gothic S)
Chamber inscription: K
S & K Toggle Knob
Grip Safety not present
Stock lug present
9mm
Brown Plastic Grips - good condition
Safe rear - Gesichert

The letter 'S' on right side of receiver above proof marks, right side of trigger, left of take down button, left side of receiver (on that square panel?)right side of gun where mag release button comes through, front of trigger guard, on that thing that comes up when the safety is off?.

Proof marks on right side of receiver are from proof page #4, #44.

Bottom of barrel has 882 stamped below serial number.

All serial numbers match with exception of bottom of magazine. Magazine has the number 2 also.

Proof marks I couldn't find reference to. Down and left of the serial number on left side of receiver is what looks like a sun with rays radiating out of it, but sun has no center (kinda like a ring) with the number 8 in the middle. On the front of the gun (above the trigger guard and below the barrel) right below the serial number is what looks like half of a 10 point star (like you see on military guys chests) with the letter 'U' stamped in it. I know I'm reachin on this description people.

Gun still has over 95% bluing.

Number 2
Toggle description: DWM
Chamber inscription: 1921
S & K Toggle Knob
Grip Safety not present
Stock lug present
9mm
Brown Plastic Grips - good condition
Safe rear - Gesichert

Proof marks: bottom of barrel - proof page 1, #4, or proof page 3, #28 (crown over N).

Right side receiver proofs; 1st proof page 3, #31, 2nd proof page 3, #33, 3rd proof page 3, #31.

Bottom of barrel doesn't have serial numbers.

All serial numbers match including bottom of magazine. Magazine has the number 2 also.

Gun still has over 95% bluing.

Hope to initiate discussion and learn something. Will post the description of other three later, any suggestions on improving my input are welcome.

Regards,

Robert

John Sabato · 12-12-2002, 01:51 PM

Robert, do the brown plastic grips have a bullseye on them...

If so these are likely VOPO, i.e., east german volkspolizei refinished Lugers...

These currently fall into the class of shooters but in time will have a following of their own as far as collectability...

Photos would make all the difference in the world about getting a decent appraisal here on the forum... I would suggest that you buy or borrow a good digital camera and post some photos (top, and both sides) in good focus.

It might be easier for you to tell us what money they are being offered for?

Can I presume that you are in the U.S. Military? or are you just passing through Yemen on other business?

rabbrt · 12-12-2002, 02:02 PM

John,

They all have bullseyes on grips with the exception of one (which I have yet to describe). Is there any pecking order on these bulls-eyed ones? Will try to get pictures out.

Am working here for an oil company.

Regards,

Robert

rabbrt · 12-12-2002, 02:08 PM

John,

Forgot the prices, range from $140-$255.

Robert

rabbrt · 12-12-2002, 02:38 PM

John and all,

Here's the one without the bullseye on grips:

Number 3
Toggle description: byf
Chamber inscription: 42
S & K Toggle Knob
Grip Safety not present
Stock lug present
9mm
Checkered wooden grips, walnut?, pretty worn
Safe rear - Gesichert

Right side receiver proofs; Proof page 4, #46, right one of these also on barrel. Middle one of these on bottom of magazine with number 85 below it.

Looks like entwined ribbon below serial number on front of gun below serial number - suufix page says its the letter 'F'.

P.08 on left side of receiver.

All serial numbers match except magazine, magazine also has letter 'H' on it.

Bottom of barrel has serial number.

Most of bluing gone from gun.

Regards,

Robert

John Sabato · 12-12-2002, 02:45 PM

Robert, at those prices... BUY THEM ALL if they are in any kind of reasonable condition. You should at least double your money and probably more if you bring them back to the U.S. someday. Just be sure to do your Customs form 6 in advance of your return so that you can get pre-approval to import your Curio & Relic firearms.

What a lucky find!

Here are a couple of recent photos posted by members of the class of Luger you are describing:

Keep your head down Robert... That is likely to be a very hot part of the world in the next few months... and I don't mean the ambient temperature.

rabbrt · 12-12-2002, 02:59 PM

John,

If I didn't want to buy them all which ones should I leave out, one or some of the bullseyed ones?

They are DWM - 1921
Mauser Banner - 1941
S/42 K
42 41 (this ones got military markings)

Robert

John Sabato · 12-12-2002, 03:21 PM

S/42 K
Mauser Banner - 1941
42 41 (this ones got military markings)
DWM - 1921

When you buy Lugers, it is always condition, condition, condition, but I would personally rate their desirability in the order shown above... others may have a different opinion.

If any of them have NOT been refinished, then they jump to the top of the BUY IT list. Original condition is always better than refinished. Check the serial number stamps carefully to see if any have been renumbered... Those without multiple stamps will be worth more.

What is the 5th one that is not listed?

rabbrt · 12-12-2002, 03:31 PM

John,

Do you mean the top of the list above has the highest desirability or the lowest?

The fifth one is the one without the bullseye that I described as number 3 above (byf).

Thanks for all your help!

Robert

Edward Tinker · 12-12-2002, 03:45 PM

I would want to buy them all also, but legally you may have trouble bringing them into the US.

What rules have they told you about buying firearms?

For the military, we could buy a pistol, provided we submitted paperwork to the US Gov't and waited anywhere from a month to several months. (all hearsay, I have never brought a gun back from overseas, but I researched it for others on several occasions, as I ran the MP Physical Security Section).

So, you might be able to purchase, but have trouble bringing them into the states. Placing them into hold baggage (if you actually live there for a long period of time) or throwing them into your luggage, they may very well be confiscated on returning to the US. Actually this is a for sure if they check you and you have NO paperwork allowing them into the US.

rabbrt · 12-12-2002, 03:54 PM

Edward,

I had planned on bringing them back some day under "curios and relics". One of my relatives has an FFL and offered to do the paper work for me. He says it can be done but it takes time. I guess if it doesn't work then I'm not out much, may be worth a try?

Robert

John Sabato · 12-12-2002, 04:06 PM

The ones at the top of my list I consider most desirable... but others may differ with me.

The K-date is a sought after Luger. All are desireable to me!

Like both Ed and I have stated. Get your paperwork in order long before you come back to the States--You may have to work with a known Luger dealer that has imported Lugers before...but it will be worth it. Especially at those prices.

Fritzer · 12-12-2002, 06:01 PM

Forum Members,

Does "curios and relics" apply here? I thought if the ammunition was still commercially manufactured, then the firearm does not qualify?

Is there an age limitation as well that I am not aware of??

Thanks,
Fritz.

rabbrt · 12-12-2002, 06:11 PM

Fritz,

From my limited knowledge I think curios and relics starts with pre 1946, then is whittled down from there, no autos etc.

Robert

Hugh · 12-12-2002, 07:55 PM

Rabbrt,

Buy the K date, it is rarer than the other dates and is worth more even if reblued. The "sun" marks are East German Vopo proofs. The gun has probably but not necessarily been reblued by a Vopo armoury, but is still a desirable variation.
<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Lugerdoc · 12-13-2002, 09:22 AM

Fritz, I agree that all of these at @$300 or under are at about half of the current prices here for any VOPO rework and most of the ones that you list are some what scarce, being advertise for up to $750. Just about any pistol over 50 years old (currently, made before 1952) qualifies as a curio, and can be brough in on an FFL or FCL, if NOT MILITARY, which all of your appear to be. Since, I have not imported any thing post Clinton, it's possible that things have easied, but I doubt it. If possible your should send all of your data to your FFL friend, to submit to the BATF on a Form 6, just to see what they will allow. Technically, since they are not for his personal use, you should be going thru a licensed importer, which would add $100 to $150 per gun. Tom H.

rabbrt · 12-13-2002, 09:34 AM

All,

I have been trying to put photos on the site but am having difficulty. Any assistance would be appreciated, maybe it is Teleyemen. I ended up picking all 5 up as John and Ed suggested. I gave the DWM to one of my friends here in Yemen. I am going to try to import the remaining four.

Total cost with the help of my Yemeni friends negotiating (made them an offer they couldn't refuse) $700.

Robert

John Sabato · 12-13-2002, 10:12 AM

WOW! [img]eek.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> $700 for all of them! Robert, Even if you part them out and leave the registered frames in Yemen at the bottom of the bay you will get your invested money back, but DO try and get them back legally to the U.S. if you can. You just saved 5 Lugers from being lost... you deserve a medal and the opportunity to own them HERE.

Best of Luck to you.

I am waiting for the photos to arrive by email. I will post them in this thread when they do.

max2cam · 12-13-2002, 11:57 AM

A interesting thread in the best tradition of the U.S. military -- souvenir hunting!

Ironic that some WWII German trophies would show up in Yemen on the onset of another possible war.

Truth is stranger than fiction...

John Sabato · 12-13-2002, 01:03 PM

There are now some good photographs of the "Five Lugers in Yemen" in a Member Gallery Album of the same name...

For the time being you will have to just figure out which is which by looking at the properties for the photos... when I get time I will caption each of them so you will know what you are looking at before you 'click'

12-12-2002, 01:34 PM	#1
rabbrt User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Five Lugers in Yemen Hi all, Am a new user. I ran across five Lugers in the Souk here in Yemen and am considering a purchase(s). Thought the groupo might help me make a decision on whether or not to buy and what a 'fair' price is. Provided below is a description of the first two (I will add the others later) as much as I could gather at the time in the shop(s) using the website guidelines: Number 1 Toggle description: S/42 (Gothic S) Chamber inscription: K S & K Toggle Knob Grip Safety not present Stock lug present 9mm Brown Plastic Grips - good condition Safe rear - Gesichert The letter 'S' on right side of receiver above proof marks, right side of trigger, left of take down button, left side of receiver (on that square panel?)right side of gun where mag release button comes through, front of trigger guard, on that thing that comes up when the safety is off?. Proof marks on right side of receiver are from proof page #4, #44. Bottom of barrel has 882 stamped below serial number. All serial numbers match with exception of bottom of magazine. Magazine has the number 2 also. Proof marks I couldn't find reference to. Down and left of the serial number on left side of receiver is what looks like a sun with rays radiating out of it, but sun has no center (kinda like a ring) with the number 8 in the middle. On the front of the gun (above the trigger guard and below the barrel) right below the serial number is what looks like half of a 10 point star (like you see on military guys chests) with the letter 'U' stamped in it. I know I'm reachin on this description people. Gun still has over 95% bluing. Number 2 Toggle description: DWM Chamber inscription: 1921 S & K Toggle Knob Grip Safety not present Stock lug present 9mm Brown Plastic Grips - good condition Safe rear - Gesichert Proof marks: bottom of barrel - proof page 1, #4, or proof page 3, #28 (crown over N). Right side receiver proofs; 1st proof page 3, #31, 2nd proof page 3, #33, 3rd proof page 3, #31. Bottom of barrel doesn't have serial numbers. All serial numbers match including bottom of magazine. Magazine has the number 2 also. Gun still has over 95% bluing. Hope to initiate discussion and learn something. Will post the description of other three later, any suggestions on improving my input are welcome. Regards, Robert

12-12-2002, 02:45 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Robert, at those prices... BUY THEM ALL if they are in any kind of reasonable condition. You should at least double your money and probably more if you bring them back to the U.S. someday. Just be sure to do your Customs form 6 in advance of your return so that you can get pre-approval to import your Curio & Relic firearms. What a lucky find! Here are a couple of recent photos posted by members of the class of Luger you are describing: Keep your head down Robert... That is likely to be a very hot part of the world in the next few months... and I don't mean the ambient temperature. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-12-2002, 03:21 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	S/42 K Mauser Banner - 1941 42 41 (this ones got military markings) DWM - 1921 When you buy Lugers, it is always condition, condition, condition, but I would personally rate their desirability in the order shown above... others may have a different opinion. If any of them have NOT been refinished, then they jump to the top of the BUY IT list. Original condition is always better than refinished. Check the serial number stamps carefully to see if any have been renumbered... Those without multiple stamps will be worth more. What is the 5th one that is not listed? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-12-2002, 03:45 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	I would want to buy them all also, but legally you may have trouble bringing them into the US. What rules have they told you about buying firearms? For the military, we could buy a pistol, provided we submitted paperwork to the US Gov't and waited anywhere from a month to several months. (all hearsay, I have never brought a gun back from overseas, but I researched it for others on several occasions, as I ran the MP Physical Security Section). So, you might be able to purchase, but have trouble bringing them into the states. Placing them into hold baggage (if you actually live there for a long period of time) or throwing them into your luggage, they may very well be confiscated on returning to the US. Actually this is a for sure if they check you and you have NO paperwork allowing them into the US. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-12-2002, 04:06 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	The ones at the top of my list I consider most desirable... but others may differ with me. The K-date is a sought after Luger. All are desireable to me! Like both Ed and I have stated. Get your paperwork in order long before you come back to the States--You may have to work with a known Luger dealer that has imported Lugers before...but it will be worth it. Especially at those prices. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-12-2002, 01:51 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Robert, do the brown plastic grips have a bullseye on them... If so these are likely VOPO, i.e., east german volkspolizei refinished Lugers... These currently fall into the class of shooters but in time will have a following of their own as far as collectability... Photos would make all the difference in the world about getting a decent appraisal here on the forum... I would suggest that you buy or borrow a good digital camera and post some photos (top, and both sides) in good focus. It might be easier for you to tell us what money they are being offered for? Can I presume that you are in the U.S. Military? or are you just passing through Yemen on other business? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-12-2002, 02:02 PM	#3
rabbrt User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, They all have bullseyes on grips with the exception of one (which I have yet to describe). Is there any pecking order on these bulls-eyed ones? Will try to get pictures out. Am working here for an oil company. Regards, Robert

12-12-2002, 02:08 PM	#4
rabbrt User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, Forgot the prices, range from $140-$255. Robert

12-12-2002, 02:38 PM	#5
rabbrt User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John and all, Here's the one without the bullseye on grips: Number 3 Toggle description: byf Chamber inscription: 42 S & K Toggle Knob Grip Safety not present Stock lug present 9mm Checkered wooden grips, walnut?, pretty worn Safe rear - Gesichert Right side receiver proofs; Proof page 4, #46, right one of these also on barrel. Middle one of these on bottom of magazine with number 85 below it. Looks like entwined ribbon below serial number on front of gun below serial number - suufix page says its the letter 'F'. P.08 on left side of receiver. All serial numbers match except magazine, magazine also has letter 'H' on it. Bottom of barrel has serial number. Most of bluing gone from gun. Regards, Robert

12-12-2002, 02:59 PM	#7
rabbrt User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, If I didn't want to buy them all which ones should I leave out, one or some of the bullseyed ones? They are DWM - 1921 Mauser Banner - 1941 S/42 K 42 41 (this ones got military markings) Robert

12-12-2002, 03:31 PM	#9
rabbrt User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, Do you mean the top of the list above has the highest desirability or the lowest? The fifth one is the one without the bullseye that I described as number 3 above (byf). Thanks for all your help! Robert

12-12-2002, 03:54 PM	#11
rabbrt User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Edward, I had planned on bringing them back some day under "curios and relics". One of my relatives has an FFL and offered to do the paper work for me. He says it can be done but it takes time. I guess if it doesn't work then I'm not out much, may be worth a try? Robert

12-12-2002, 06:01 PM	#13
Fritzer User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 134 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Forum Members, Does "curios and relics" apply here? I thought if the ammunition was still commercially manufactured, then the firearm does not qualify? Is there an age limitation as well that I am not aware of?? Thanks, Fritz.

12-12-2002, 06:11 PM	#14
rabbrt User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Fritz, From my limited knowledge I think curios and relics starts with pre 1946, then is whittled down from there, no autos etc. Robert

12-12-2002, 07:55 PM	#15
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Rabbrt, Buy the K date, it is rarer than the other dates and is worth more even if reblued. The "sun" marks are East German Vopo proofs. The gun has probably but not necessarily been reblued by a Vopo armoury, but is still a desirable variation. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

12-13-2002, 09:22 AM	#16
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Fritz, I agree that all of these at @$300 or under are at about half of the current prices here for any VOPO rework and most of the ones that you list are some what scarce, being advertise for up to $750. Just about any pistol over 50 years old (currently, made before 1952) qualifies as a curio, and can be brough in on an FFL or FCL, if NOT MILITARY, which all of your appear to be. Since, I have not imported any thing post Clinton, it's possible that things have easied, but I doubt it. If possible your should send all of your data to your FFL friend, to submit to the BATF on a Form 6, just to see what they will allow. Technically, since they are not for his personal use, you should be going thru a licensed importer, which would add $100 to $150 per gun. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-13-2002, 09:34 AM	#17
rabbrt User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	All, I have been trying to put photos on the site but am having difficulty. Any assistance would be appreciated, maybe it is Teleyemen. I ended up picking all 5 up as John and Ed suggested. I gave the DWM to one of my friends here in Yemen. I am going to try to import the remaining four. Total cost with the help of my Yemeni friends negotiating (made them an offer they couldn't refuse) $700. Robert

12-13-2002, 10:12 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	WOW! [img]eek.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> $700 for all of them! Robert, Even if you part them out and leave the registered frames in Yemen at the bottom of the bay you will get your invested money back, but DO try and get them back legally to the U.S. if you can. You just saved 5 Lugers from being lost... you deserve a medal and the opportunity to own them HERE. Best of Luck to you. I am waiting for the photos to arrive by email. I will post them in this thread when they do. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-13-2002, 11:57 AM	#19
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A interesting thread in the best tradition of the U.S. military -- souvenir hunting! Ironic that some WWII German trophies would show up in Yemen on the onset of another possible war. Truth is stranger than fiction...

12-13-2002, 01:03 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	There are now some good photographs of the "Five Lugers in Yemen" in a Member Gallery Album of the same name... For the time being you will have to just figure out which is which by looking at the properties for the photos... when I get time I will caption each of them so you will know what you are looking at before you 'click' __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*