Faked, refinished and boosted Lugers. - Page 4

Edward Tinker · 06-09-2002, 10:51 PM

Herb and I am not trying to start anything or doubt anyone, but in the Legal profession, if you talk to different experts, you can get different opinions. Some is untruths, but I think most experts on each side believe what they are saying, and have different views. If you took your dagger to another expert, would they have the same opinion? The "evidence" you were shown and heard, sounds awful convincing?

[img]confused.gif[/img]

Herb · 06-09-2002, 11:36 PM

Ed, my opinion exactly. I held his hat, his tunic, his trousers and his boots in my my hands. If this vendor was trying to fake an original dagger he sure went to a lot of trouble to do it. But I still cannot in all good concience offer it for resale some day as an original as a relsult of his evaluation. Who is the expert, the buyer or someone that says they are and charges $100 to prove it?

wterrell · 06-09-2002, 11:41 PM

Are we to decide that nothing can be determined? That the exception becomes the rule? If we cannot state it completely, then nothing can be stated?
This would allow for the continuation of alteration, fakery, enhancement, etc.
At the least, documentation of a gun would freeze its characteristics, excluding attrition.
A determination as to whether a gun is fake should not be made while documenting its traits. Let that be determined in private counsel and research.

Dwight Gruber · 06-10-2002, 01:52 AM

[quote]Originally posted by wes:
<strong>
A determination as to whether a gun is fake should not be made while documenting its traits. Let that be determined in private counsel and research.</strong><hr></blockquote>

True. But if we are traavelling down this road,the registry should note: 1. guns which are -already- recognized as fakes (Jan Still pointed out a couple of examples a while back, I'm sure there are more), and 2. markings which are at varience with the recognized authentic markings, i.e. KRIEGHOFF with two good 'F's, A.F. STOEGER with upright lettering instead of italic, etc.

--Dwight

wterrell · 06-10-2002, 10:39 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
<strong>

markings which are at varience with the recognized authentic markings, i.e. KRIEGHOFF with two good 'F's, A.F. STOEGER with upright lettering instead of italic, etc.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dwight, I agree with this.

Luke · 06-10-2002, 01:48 PM

In answer to Pete's question about the dilemma of finding that you are the not-too-proud owner of a boosted Luger . . . [img]mad.gif[/img]

I find myself in EXACTLY that situation now. I have a 1942 byf which looked great, all matching, 98% blue, etc. I bought it months ago when I first started collecting and was too uniformed to look for anything dishonest about the condition of the gun.

Recently I had occasion to carefully examine the bluing again and found that the barrel has been buffed and reblued. The right side of the barrel has rust pits in it which are beautifully blued all the way to the bottom . . . . much teeth grinding here. [img]mad.gif[/img]

My answer: Under no condition will I sell the gun. Instead, I have a wonderful friend who loves the gun just the way it is, reblued barrel and all. I am making a present of it to him with his full knowledge of the "boosting" which has taken place. He is happy; I have a clear conscience.

Nevertheless, somewhere down the line, maybe in 50 years, that gun will be sold again as a "mint" byf 42.

Jan C Still · 06-10-2002, 02:28 PM

One last caution concerning faked,refinished and boosted Lugers. As Bill Munis pointed out, none of us were at the DWM or Mauser plant when Lugers were being manufactured. The fakers and dishonest dealers ply their trade in secret.

Most often, all the collector has to detect bad Lugers is his past experience, knowledge of markings and serial ranges, common sense and knowledge of the dealer. Some bad Lugers are easy to detect (poor quality refinish, 90 year old gun that looks brand new, inconsistent aging, incorrectly spelled inscription, previous record of the gun without inscription, etc) other bad Lugers are of the highest quality and very difficult to detect (A "K" date expertly made from a Weimar luger). Most often there is no documentation.

As with anything that requires common sense and judgement mistakes are made (ie Johnson the dagger expert may have been mistaken about Herb's SS dagger). In short, the process of detecting bad lugers is fairly certain at the easy end of the scale and not always certain at the difficult end of the scale. However, one pattern is consistent, most often experienced collectors and dealers will not buy the same questionable Luger.
Jan C. Still

Herb · 06-10-2002, 04:24 PM

I think that documenting the Lugers that we know to be good is allright. I bought a 1918 DWM from Ralph last March. I have no problem registering it's current condition for the benefit of a possible future owner as I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when I go to the happy Luger hunting grounds she will dispose of it, as well as all the others in my collection. I guess what I am trying to say is that positively stating that a 1935 Mauser will have ONLY these markings and no others is really shakey. If one had ten of them in front of him and closely examined every one they probably would all have different marks in one place or another. I am reasonably sure that Mauser, DWM, etc. each had several inspectors and also several Waffenampt final inspectors that accepted the pistols that came off the line on any given day. Each one of these inspectors would have a different stamp, therefore the same days run would bear several different markings from the same factory although not on the same Luger. I don't know, am I making any sense here? I am leary of anything unusual such as a 'deaths head' stamping, or any so called 'rare' variation regardless of the price. I think that registering known 'originals' by serial number is ok, it would at least provide a data base that one could check the serial number to see if it is there and did it have that marking at that time. Of course this data base would be useless to any of us since the weapons are still held in private collections and are very unlikely to be on the open market for quite some time, ie; when we die. Over the years it would come to be invaluable to future buyers assuming that someone maintains it. Of great current value would be for the big sellers like Ralph, Simpson and others to join in on such a project as their Lugers will be hitting the market almost on a daily basis, they would also benefit by having the accurate condition data on a particular date from each other. Who has the big carrot to get them to do this, that is a lot of work?

John D. · 06-11-2002, 09:52 PM

Hi Folks....

I think there are three issues at work in this thread...

1 - A Luger Collectors society such as something like an "International Lugers Collectors Association" (ILCA??). I think it could be a terrific idea...

2 - a "Registry" where folks can enter their Lugers - and that database can be accessed by folks in a society like "ILCA" as mentioned above? I still need to see what technology I could bring to bear on that (and thanks to Orv for his advice!)....

3 - a Forum to discuss the pitfalls/what to look for in Lugers that may have been altered? Now, I have a LOT of Forums to watch, and with the help of some Moderators - we can do it. Therefore - I'd like to ask Jan Still to help Moderate a Forum of this topic. All in favor - say "Aye"... All opposed - don't post [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

Jan - you would have a vote in becoming a Moderator, but it won't count!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously, if Mr. Still will agree to help out - I'd be delighted to set up this Forum, but as you can tell from my delayed replies over the past few days, I'm a little behind in my e-mail and reading..!!!

Herb · 06-11-2002, 10:17 PM

John, excellent choice, you have my AYE!!

wterrell · 06-11-2002, 10:52 PM

Aye

Luke · 06-12-2002, 07:12 AM

A big A Y E [img]biggrin.gif[/img]
Please consider it, Mr. Still.

Luke

M38 · 06-12-2002, 08:15 AM

Aye

John Sabato · 06-13-2002, 10:35 AM

I say AYE! (but I am STILL waiting for the other shoe to fall [img]biggrin.gif[/img] because Jan needs to say AYE)

-pun intended of course <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

Double T · 06-14-2002, 09:36 PM

A registry sounds pretty nice to a rank novice like myself. I'm becoming more and more enamored with Lugers as I try to resell the pieces that I happenstance acquired. A registry would certainly give me a jumpstart on the knowledge that I need to avoid making embarrasing mistakes to a buyer of short changing myself because of lack of knowledge. And in the very likely event that I start my own collection of Lugers, I'll need even more help.

That said, from a computer systems analyst perspective, man you've tackled a bigggggg job when you start to amass all the data involved. And the DATA would have to be authenticated, same as the gun would for it to be reliable. I ain't quite as old as a former poster, but I'm afraid I don't that much time left.

Someone mentioned an "authority" who could or would authenticate a piece. Now I'm really interested in that. I'd PAY for the service!!!

Ron

06-09-2002, 10:51 PM	#61
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Herb and I am not trying to start anything or doubt anyone, but in the Legal profession, if you talk to different experts, you can get different opinions. Some is untruths, but I think most experts on each side believe what they are saying, and have different views. If you took your dagger to another expert, would they have the same opinion? The "evidence" you were shown and heard, sounds awful convincing? [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-09-2002, 11:36 PM	#62
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ed, my opinion exactly. I held his hat, his tunic, his trousers and his boots in my my hands. If this vendor was trying to fake an original dagger he sure went to a lot of trouble to do it. But I still cannot in all good concience offer it for resale some day as an original as a relsult of his evaluation. Who is the expert, the buyer or someone that says they are and charges $100 to prove it? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-09-2002, 11:41 PM	#63
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Are we to decide that nothing can be determined? That the exception becomes the rule? If we cannot state it completely, then nothing can be stated? This would allow for the continuation of alteration, fakery, enhancement, etc. At the least, documentation of a gun would freeze its characteristics, excluding attrition. A determination as to whether a gun is fake should not be made while documenting its traits. Let that be determined in private counsel and research. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-10-2002, 10:39 AM	#65
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[quote]Originally posted by Dwight Gruber: <strong> markings which are at varience with the recognized authentic markings, i.e. KRIEGHOFF with two good 'F's, A.F. STOEGER with upright lettering instead of italic, etc. </strong><hr></blockquote> Dwight, I agree with this. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-10-2002, 01:48 PM	#66
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	In answer to Pete's question about the dilemma of finding that you are the not-too-proud owner of a boosted Luger . . . [img]mad.gif[/img] I find myself in EXACTLY that situation now. I have a 1942 byf which looked great, all matching, 98% blue, etc. I bought it months ago when I first started collecting and was too uniformed to look for anything dishonest about the condition of the gun. Recently I had occasion to carefully examine the bluing again and found that the barrel has been buffed and reblued. The right side of the barrel has rust pits in it which are beautifully blued all the way to the bottom . . . . much teeth grinding here. [img]mad.gif[/img] My answer: Under no condition will I sell the gun. Instead, I have a wonderful friend who loves the gun just the way it is, reblued barrel and all. I am making a present of it to him with his full knowledge of the "boosting" which has taken place. He is happy; I have a clear conscience. Nevertheless, somewhere down the line, maybe in 50 years, that gun will be sold again as a "mint" byf 42. __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-10-2002, 01:52 AM	#64
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by wes: <strong> A determination as to whether a gun is fake should not be made while documenting its traits. Let that be determined in private counsel and research.</strong><hr></blockquote> True. But if we are traavelling down this road,the registry should note: 1. guns which are -already- recognized as fakes (Jan Still pointed out a couple of examples a while back, I'm sure there are more), and 2. markings which are at varience with the recognized authentic markings, i.e. KRIEGHOFF with two good 'F's, A.F. STOEGER with upright lettering instead of italic, etc. --Dwight

06-10-2002, 02:28 PM	#67
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	One last caution concerning faked,refinished and boosted Lugers. As Bill Munis pointed out, none of us were at the DWM or Mauser plant when Lugers were being manufactured. The fakers and dishonest dealers ply their trade in secret. Most often, all the collector has to detect bad Lugers is his past experience, knowledge of markings and serial ranges, common sense and knowledge of the dealer. Some bad Lugers are easy to detect (poor quality refinish, 90 year old gun that looks brand new, inconsistent aging, incorrectly spelled inscription, previous record of the gun without inscription, etc) other bad Lugers are of the highest quality and very difficult to detect (A "K" date expertly made from a Weimar luger). Most often there is no documentation. As with anything that requires common sense and judgement mistakes are made (ie Johnson the dagger expert may have been mistaken about Herb's SS dagger). In short, the process of detecting bad lugers is fairly certain at the easy end of the scale and not always certain at the difficult end of the scale. However, one pattern is consistent, most often experienced collectors and dealers will not buy the same questionable Luger. Jan C. Still

06-10-2002, 04:24 PM	#68
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I think that documenting the Lugers that we know to be good is allright. I bought a 1918 DWM from Ralph last March. I have no problem registering it's current condition for the benefit of a possible future owner as I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when I go to the happy Luger hunting grounds she will dispose of it, as well as all the others in my collection. I guess what I am trying to say is that positively stating that a 1935 Mauser will have ONLY these markings and no others is really shakey. If one had ten of them in front of him and closely examined every one they probably would all have different marks in one place or another. I am reasonably sure that Mauser, DWM, etc. each had several inspectors and also several Waffenampt final inspectors that accepted the pistols that came off the line on any given day. Each one of these inspectors would have a different stamp, therefore the same days run would bear several different markings from the same factory although not on the same Luger. I don't know, am I making any sense here? I am leary of anything unusual such as a 'deaths head' stamping, or any so called 'rare' variation regardless of the price. I think that registering known 'originals' by serial number is ok, it would at least provide a data base that one could check the serial number to see if it is there and did it have that marking at that time. Of course this data base would be useless to any of us since the weapons are still held in private collections and are very unlikely to be on the open market for quite some time, ie; when we die. Over the years it would come to be invaluable to future buyers assuming that someone maintains it. Of great current value would be for the big sellers like Ralph, Simpson and others to join in on such a project as their Lugers will be hitting the market almost on a daily basis, they would also benefit by having the accurate condition data on a particular date from each other. Who has the big carrot to get them to do this, that is a lot of work? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-11-2002, 09:52 PM	#69
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Folks.... I think there are three issues at work in this thread... 1 - A Luger Collectors society such as something like an "International Lugers Collectors Association" (ILCA??). I think it could be a terrific idea... 2 - a "Registry" where folks can enter their Lugers - and that database can be accessed by folks in a society like "ILCA" as mentioned above? I still need to see what technology I could bring to bear on that (and thanks to Orv for his advice!).... 3 - a Forum to discuss the pitfalls/what to look for in Lugers that may have been altered? Now, I have a LOT of Forums to watch, and with the help of some Moderators - we can do it. Therefore - I'd like to ask Jan Still to help Moderate a Forum of this topic. All in favor - say "Aye"... All opposed - don't post [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] Jan - you would have a vote in becoming a Moderator, but it won't count!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Seriously, if Mr. Still will agree to help out - I'd be delighted to set up this Forum, but as you can tell from my delayed replies over the past few days, I'm a little behind in my e-mail and reading..!!!

06-11-2002, 10:17 PM	#70
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John, excellent choice, you have my AYE!! __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-11-2002, 10:52 PM	#71
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Aye __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-12-2002, 07:12 AM	#72
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	A big A Y E [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Please consider it, Mr. Still. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-12-2002, 08:15 AM	#73
M38 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Northern VA Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Aye

06-13-2002, 10:35 AM	#74
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I say AYE! (but I am STILL waiting for the other shoe to fall [img]biggrin.gif[/img] because Jan needs to say AYE) -pun intended of course <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-14-2002, 09:36 PM	#75
Double T User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eufaula, Alabama Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A registry sounds pretty nice to a rank novice like myself. I'm becoming more and more enamored with Lugers as I try to resell the pieces that I happenstance acquired. A registry would certainly give me a jumpstart on the knowledge that I need to avoid making embarrasing mistakes to a buyer of short changing myself because of lack of knowledge. And in the very likely event that I start my own collection of Lugers, I'll need even more help. That said, from a computer systems analyst perspective, man you've tackled a bigggggg job when you start to amass all the data involved. And the DATA would have to be authenticated, same as the gun would for it to be reliable. I ain't quite as old as a former poster, but I'm afraid I don't that much time left. Someone mentioned an "authority" who could or would authenticate a piece. Now I'm really interested in that. I'd PAY for the service!!! Ron