Swiss 06/29 9mm Value

Michael Zeleny · 05-19-2004, 10:53 PM

I have been offered a Swiss 06/29 originally chambered in 9x19mm by Waffenfabrik Bern. The pistol is in at least a 99% condition. It is accompanied by an original holster. How much is this pistol worth? How many of the 06/29 Lugers are known to have been made in this chambering?

Pete Ebbink · 05-20-2004, 11:11 AM

Hello Michael,

Do you know the serial number and/or whether the gun has red plastic grips and magazine bottom or brown or black plastic ? There is a pricing premium for the red variety usually 20% more.

Knowing the serial number could help determine if someone just added (i.e. replaced..) the red plastic or whether the luger left the factory with them.

Also...does the serial number have a P-prefix ? This would indicate a commercial pistol vs. an Ordnance pistol. The P-prefized guns also have a price premium. (Not to confuse a "P" or P-(date)" stamped gun which denotes an Ordnance pistol release for private sale...).

There were ~ 27,000 to 28,000 M06/29 Ordnance lugers and another ~ 1,900 commercial lugers. Most were in 7,65 cal. but some rare ones in 9mm. If I remember correctly, an original 9 mm barreled luger would have the Berner probe stamp and the full serial number of the gun stamped on the shoulder of the barrel near where it screws into the receiver. Those without the barrel shoulder stampings would indicate a barrel replacement, at some point in time...

Red Berns were roughly in the 50001 to 57000 serial number range. Brown Berns in the 57000 to 65000 serial range and Black Berns in the 65000 to 77941 serial range. There is overlap in the serial numbers between the types of plastic used...

7,65 cal minty Red Berns have been going (in the USA) for $ 2000 to 2500, the Brown and Black ones a little less...vg condition M06/29 holsters in the $ 120 to 140 price range...not sure what the premium for factory-original 9 mm chambering is worth...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Lugerdoc · 05-20-2004, 11:21 AM

Michael, The only reference that I can find to Swiss Mo6/29s in 9mm is in Datig's "The Swiss Variations 1897-1947" on page 56: An unknown number of P prefix pistols were employed as "guinea pigs" by the Swiss authories, especially those of 1947 vintage. Some were equipted with experimental 9mm barrels of various lengths, while others were fitted with experimental sighting equipment (photos on pages 59,60,62 & 63). I have these books available new @$20 postpaid. Tom Heller POB 398 St.Charles, MO. 63302.

Michael Zeleny · 05-20-2004, 01:17 PM

The pistol has a P78XXX serial number. The grips are brown. The barrel is properly serialized. I have Datig's book. As Tom implies, it is unhelpful in determining the value of a commercial Bern 9mm Luger. I am hoping for additional information such as auction reports.

Pete Ebbink · 05-20-2004, 11:41 PM

Michael,

From V. Bobba's book on Swiss lugers on page 160, the pistol you are considering is from the M06/29 5th. variation, sub-variation A; with serial numbers around P77942 to P78258...should have black plastic grips and magazine bottom.

The Simpson LTD web site list a P781xx with an asking price of $ 2950...but in 7,65 cal.

Cannot help you with the pricing of a 9 mm variety...since they are so rare...if indeed factory installed. V. Bobba says a few were customer orders and also some W+F evaluation pieces.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 05-21-2004, 12:42 AM

Be very careful. As Pete says, 9mm examples are quite rare. At one Tulsa show I saw three on one table, all in near mint condition. If I had the money, I still wouldnÃ¢??t have bought one. You may have found a winner, but look at it very closely and objectively.

Michael Zeleny · 05-21-2004, 04:19 AM

Ron,

Thanks for the warning. Do you happen to recall the asking prices for the alleged Bern 9mm Lugers at Tulsa?

Ron Wood · 05-21-2004, 09:44 AM

Michael,
Sorry, it was a couple of years ago and since I didn't have much interest in them I didn't lock in a number. Any figure I would give you would be a guess and not from memory.

bradsimpson · 06-02-2004, 05:03 PM

Michael,
The Swiss made many un-numbered 9mm barrels, for the 29. Swiss arsenals randomly put these barrels on their 29's as needed. There were a few 29's made at the very end of production with numbered 9mm barrels. They are numbered around the back ring just like the 30 cal barrels. Ones we've seen have been dated 46 or 47. The Swiss started using the 9mm P-210 in 49.

To see the month & year a 29 was made, remove the take-down lever and look underneath in the frame well.

Real 9mm 29's with un-numbered barrels can bring about $1K more than .30's.

Real numbered 9mm barrels add about $3K to the value.

Michael Zeleny · 06-02-2004, 05:23 PM

Brad,
Thank you for your informative response. Is it possible to add value to a garden variety 06/29 by substituting an un-numbered 9mm barrel?

bradsimpson · 06-02-2004, 05:42 PM

Michael,
That happens, but its not ethical. Thats why I put "Real" in front. As Ron said, "be careful." Those barrels are out there.

If someone has 3 of them on a table, I'd be very careful.

Michael Zeleny · 06-02-2004, 06:01 PM

Brad,
What is the righteous way to put together a Swiss Parabellum 9mm shooter?

bradsimpson · 06-02-2004, 06:21 PM

Michael,
Buy the 29 you like and find a 9mm barrel. That way you will have the original numbered .30 barrel and a 9mm barrel to shoot with. The 9mm barrel doesn't have to be real. Just represent it as what it is.

If you just want to shoot it, it doesn't have to be mint. It can even be refinished or mis-matched, if you don't mind.

Michael Zeleny · 06-02-2004, 06:39 PM

Brad,
I am planning to import a few firearms from Switzerland, including SIG P210 army pistols, Parabellum 06-24 and 29 pistols, a Swiss revolver 1929, a ZfK 1955, a Haemmerli 208, a Mauser C96, and a Manurhin MR-73. I would like this lot to include a modified 9mm Swiss Luger with an imprimatur of arsenal authenticity, if it is possible to get past the oxymoron. Are there any Swiss gun shops known for putting together custom Lugers in the manner of John Martz in the U.S.A. or Waffen Werle in Germany?

bradsimpson · 06-04-2004, 02:14 PM

Michael,
Leon Crottet is the best at customizing automatic handguns in Switzerland. His specialty is the Sig P-210. I don't know if he has worked on Lugers, but if he won't, I'm sure he could recommend someone that would.

He has made the best half-scale Lugers ever produced.

I know he has a shop and a web-site, but I don't know the address. You could probably find it on Google?

05-19-2004, 10:53 PM	#1
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	Swiss 06/29 9mm Value I have been offered a Swiss 06/29 originally chambered in 9x19mm by Waffenfabrik Bern. The pistol is in at least a 99% condition. It is accompanied by an original holster. How much is this pistol worth? How many of the 06/29 Lugers are known to have been made in this chambering? __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

05-20-2004, 11:21 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Michael, The only reference that I can find to Swiss Mo6/29s in 9mm is in Datig's "The Swiss Variations 1897-1947" on page 56: An unknown number of P prefix pistols were employed as "guinea pigs" by the Swiss authories, especially those of 1947 vintage. Some were equipted with experimental 9mm barrels of various lengths, while others were fitted with experimental sighting equipment (photos on pages 59,60,62 & 63). I have these books available new @$20 postpaid. Tom Heller POB 398 St.Charles, MO. 63302. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-20-2004, 01:17 PM	#4
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	The pistol has a P78XXX serial number. The grips are brown. The barrel is properly serialized. I have Datig's book. As Tom implies, it is unhelpful in determining the value of a commercial Bern 9mm Luger. I am hoping for additional information such as auction reports. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

05-21-2004, 12:42 AM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,036 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,247 Times in 1,720 Posts	Be very careful. As Pete says, 9mm examples are quite rare. At one Tulsa show I saw three on one table, all in near mint condition. If I had the money, I still wouldnÃ¢??t have bought one. You may have found a winner, but look at it very closely and objectively. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-21-2004, 04:19 AM	#7
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	Ron, Thanks for the warning. Do you happen to recall the asking prices for the alleged Bern 9mm Lugers at Tulsa? __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

05-20-2004, 11:11 AM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Michael, Do you know the serial number and/or whether the gun has red plastic grips and magazine bottom or brown or black plastic ? There is a pricing premium for the red variety usually 20% more. Knowing the serial number could help determine if someone just added (i.e. replaced..) the red plastic or whether the luger left the factory with them. Also...does the serial number have a P-prefix ? This would indicate a commercial pistol vs. an Ordnance pistol. The P-prefized guns also have a price premium. (Not to confuse a "P" or P-(date)" stamped gun which denotes an Ordnance pistol release for private sale...). There were ~ 27,000 to 28,000 M06/29 Ordnance lugers and another ~ 1,900 commercial lugers. Most were in 7,65 cal. but some rare ones in 9mm. If I remember correctly, an original 9 mm barreled luger would have the Berner probe stamp and the full serial number of the gun stamped on the shoulder of the barrel near where it screws into the receiver. Those without the barrel shoulder stampings would indicate a barrel replacement, at some point in time... Red Berns were roughly in the 50001 to 57000 serial number range. Brown Berns in the 57000 to 65000 serial range and Black Berns in the 65000 to 77941 serial range. There is overlap in the serial numbers between the types of plastic used... 7,65 cal minty Red Berns have been going (in the USA) for $ 2000 to 2500, the Brown and Black ones a little less...vg condition M06/29 holsters in the $ 120 to 140 price range...not sure what the premium for factory-original 9 mm chambering is worth... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

05-20-2004, 11:41 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Michael, From V. Bobba's book on Swiss lugers on page 160, the pistol you are considering is from the M06/29 5th. variation, sub-variation A; with serial numbers around P77942 to P78258...should have black plastic grips and magazine bottom. The Simpson LTD web site list a P781xx with an asking price of $ 2950...but in 7,65 cal. Cannot help you with the pricing of a 9 mm variety...since they are so rare...if indeed factory installed. V. Bobba says a few were customer orders and also some W+F evaluation pieces. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

05-21-2004, 09:44 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,036 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,247 Times in 1,720 Posts	Michael, Sorry, it was a couple of years ago and since I didn't have much interest in them I didn't lock in a number. Any figure I would give you would be a guess and not from memory. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-02-2004, 05:03 PM	#9
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Michael, The Swiss made many un-numbered 9mm barrels, for the 29. Swiss arsenals randomly put these barrels on their 29's as needed. There were a few 29's made at the very end of production with numbered 9mm barrels. They are numbered around the back ring just like the 30 cal barrels. Ones we've seen have been dated 46 or 47. The Swiss started using the 9mm P-210 in 49. To see the month & year a 29 was made, remove the take-down lever and look underneath in the frame well. Real 9mm 29's with un-numbered barrels can bring about $1K more than .30's. Real numbered 9mm barrels add about $3K to the value.

06-02-2004, 05:23 PM	#10
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	Brad, Thank you for your informative response. Is it possible to add value to a garden variety 06/29 by substituting an un-numbered 9mm barrel? __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

06-02-2004, 05:42 PM	#11
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Michael, That happens, but its not ethical. Thats why I put "Real" in front. As Ron said, "be careful." Those barrels are out there. If someone has 3 of them on a table, I'd be very careful.

06-02-2004, 06:01 PM	#12
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	Brad, What is the righteous way to put together a Swiss Parabellum 9mm shooter? __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

06-02-2004, 06:21 PM	#13
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Michael, Buy the 29 you like and find a 9mm barrel. That way you will have the original numbered .30 barrel and a 9mm barrel to shoot with. The 9mm barrel doesn't have to be real. Just represent it as what it is. If you just want to shoot it, it doesn't have to be mint. It can even be refinished or mis-matched, if you don't mind.

06-02-2004, 06:39 PM	#14
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	Brad, I am planning to import a few firearms from Switzerland, including SIG P210 army pistols, Parabellum 06-24 and 29 pistols, a Swiss revolver 1929, a ZfK 1955, a Haemmerli 208, a Mauser C96, and a Manurhin MR-73. I would like this lot to include a modified 9mm Swiss Luger with an imprimatur of arsenal authenticity, if it is possible to get past the oxymoron. Are there any Swiss gun shops known for putting together custom Lugers in the manner of John Martz in the U.S.A. or Waffen Werle in Germany? __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

06-04-2004, 02:14 PM	#15
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Michael, Leon Crottet is the best at customizing automatic handguns in Switzerland. His specialty is the Sig P-210. I don't know if he has worked on Lugers, but if he won't, I'm sure he could recommend someone that would. He has made the best half-scale Lugers ever produced. I know he has a shop and a web-site, but I don't know the address. You could probably find it on Google?