Censorship?!?

ratdog · 07-16-2003, 07:44 AM

John, just out of curiosity, how much are you getting paid to be a censor? Why can't people just discuss things, no matter what the subject? All these forums give someone a title and it seems to empower them with some sort of idea that they must "control" things. Hell, they are just web sites, not some organization like the FBI or CIA! Personally, I don't see why or where someone finds the time to monitor these forums for idiots (like me), you/they must have obligations in their life much more important than some web page. So now you can feel powerful and ban me for speaking my feelings, I have found this makes "moderators" feel important.............Bruce

unspellable · 07-16-2003, 07:58 AM

ratdog, see the history of the flame wars at this forum in its previous incarnation. Then check out the Dan Wesson forum for an example of a nice gun nut's forum getting porno spam for lack of a moderator.

ratdog · 07-16-2003, 08:27 AM

I don't understand the terminology used. What is "spam" and its affect on a forum, and how bad can it be if it's porn!?! The only spam I have heard reference to is junk email, and it is ALL porn, just delete it and problem solved.

John Sabato · 07-16-2003, 08:48 AM

Bruce, (Ratdog)

I will put this in the simplest of terms... this forum is privately owned and operated for the benefit of the Luger enthusiast community world-wide. My time is volunteered... as is the time of all the moderators... My time is volunteered because I enjoy this hobby, and most all of the people who participate or are interested in it... I have plenty of other productive things to do, but choose to spend some of my time here, attempting to make this a better place to visit than your average internet gun forum.

This forum has rules for those who wish to participate... if you can't play by the rules as decided by the management, which includes the "owner" (personally finances the entire operation),a nine member board of directors, and the moderators, then you don't get to play...

You get to make the decision whether or not you will abide by the rules... the management of the forum gets to decide whether or not your behavior is acceptable...and in the best interests of the membership at large.

This forum nearly perished in June of 2001 due to the kind of activity that you have "endorsed"... Since it's recovery from the ashes... It has flourished and this has been the direct result of effective enforcement of the rules...

That includes censorship of language that is not in good taste, or poor manners...and the banning of "members" who choose not to comply with the agreement they acknowledged to become part of this forum... That has happened only two times in the 5 year history of this board...

Your posts and questions are welcomed here... as long as you stay within the guidelines that are there for us all. For every voice like yours that implies that your freedoms are being violated... there are hundreds of encouraging voices that sit back quietly and send back channel messages with thanks for making this a "safe" place to visit... even with your child of reading age sitting in your lap if you so choose...

The choice to participate in the forum is yours...the choice to accept what the "management" considers to be violations of the terms of service and Forum Decorum is exclusively ours...

An Organization without management is anarchy not freedom.

BTW, since this message thread has nothing to do with P-08 Military Lugers I am moving it to the General Discussion Forum where it belongs...

ratdog · 07-16-2003, 09:34 AM

So who is to say what is acceptable, you certainly aren't capable or anyone on the "board", the Supreme Court isn't even able to say what's acceptable! That is what freedom of speech and expression is about. A bunch of guys who want control over something want to be able to say "I don't like that, get rid of it". A great man once said, and I quote "censorship is brought about by the inability of someone to control their own urges!". Just had to get this off my chest and now I will leave it be........................Bruce

Pete Ebbink · 07-16-2003, 10:06 AM

Hello Bruce,

In addition to what John S. has stated, we (the moderators) try not to allow topic discussion to stray too far from the topic of lugers and pistols/shooting in general.

If you are interested in posting a Nazi discussion on a discussion forum, you might want to visit the following :

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/

They seem to have many interesting discussion, but they even have some rules there...as well...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John D. · 07-16-2003, 10:18 AM

Hi Bruce,

John S. - and all the "Moderators" try to keep the discussions in-line to the subject of this Forum. It's really sort of simple. In other words - if you want to discuss porn - go to a porn forum. If you want to discuss cars, go to an automotive Forum. This would not be those Forums. Folks don't come here to read those subjects here.

The second objective is to maintain some degree of social skills while posting - in short - flaming won't be tolerated. That's pretty simple as well.

Finally - we also have certain rules about posts that may be considered libelous. As the website owner, the liability for those posts are not shared.

I think the post by John S. was right on target. Thanks John..!

Thor · 07-16-2003, 10:30 AM

Thanks John Dunkle and John Sabato for making this a wholesome site for discussions of Lugers. If I look at the VAST majority of sites on the net it sickens me the trash that is out there. I am grateful indeed for this site to discuss Lugers and leave the rest of the trash outside this forums venue.

John D. · 07-16-2003, 10:40 AM

Thanks Thor and all..!!!

Also - unspellable - I hang out on that site when I get some time, but after the episodes on the DW Forum for the past few months, stopped posting to that one - for *exactly* the reason you cited in your post...!!!

lugerholsterrepair · 07-16-2003, 11:34 AM

Ratdog, I am unaware of what started your rant about Luger Forum but you are beginning to sound like a social misfit. Attacking the owner of this great site, the moderators and the members way of doing things here.

So now you can feel powerful and ban me for speaking my feelings, I have found this makes "moderators" feel important.............Bruce

As a moderator I do not enjoy censoring statements on the Forum and in fact have never had to do so but from your statement above you apparently have had the pleasure on another Forum.

If this Forum is not to your liking I would suggest you either adjust your attitude and fit in, contribute something or exit on your own accord. Those of us who enjoy it are here for a purpose...We accept the restrictions for the greater good and do not use freedom of speech as a crutch for vitrolic antisocial rantings. We use Freedom of Speech for more important subjects. Jerry Burney

PACKET · 07-16-2003, 11:39 AM

Thanks John Sabato for that exquisitely worded reply. Ratdog needs to understand that while he has the right of free speech, he does not have the right to be published in a private forum. The rules here are abundantly clear.

ratdog · 07-16-2003, 11:58 AM

What got me started was a thread was stopped when it got into a debate about owning a weapon that killed innocent civilians. It was announced that it got out of control and was better suited for "a Chicago barroom" instead of here. So from one misfit to another I thought that statement made no sense. Excuse me for not following "your" rules. It offended someone so it was shut down, what about the people it didn't offend- they had no say. I feel that is more entertaining to read than how many checkers a Luger grip should have, it's moe real and honest. Just this "social misfits" opinion. Oh by the way MODERATORS if you are listening, that is a slanderous name I was called by Holster, please reprimand him..............

Edward Tinker · 07-16-2003, 11:59 AM

Bruce, I am inclined to allow things to go a bit further, as a moderator my standards are:

1. Personnel attacks I will monitor closely and probably give a warning.

2. I don't mind the light joke, and have contributed to some of them, but they easily get out of hand.

3. Talking Nazi on the forum invariably leads to hot tempers, so unless you keep it to Nazi era item talk, specifically holsters and Lugers, you'll get the topic closed or deleted.

4. Sexual kidding to a very small degree I don't have a problem with, (well actually I don't mind kidding like that), but in a "public" place like this, it had better be very small degree, some of the other moderators won't agree with that degree.

5. There is no such thing as First Amendment rights on a private forum, it just doesn't exist, as the First Amendment Right deals with gov't or as is commonly seen, newspapers, TV etc., and they get controlled by gov't rules since that is how our society works. This is privately funded by John Dunkle and even if he took ads and other payment, it is a private forum and 1st Amendment rights do not apply.

Ed

Edward Tinker · 07-16-2003, 12:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ratdog:
What got me started was a thread was stopped when it got into a debate about owning a weapon that killed innocent civilians. It was announced that it got out of control ... ...I thought that statement made no sense.

I feel that is more entertaining to read than how many checkers a Luger grip should have, it's more real and honest. ..<hr /></blockquote>Ratdog, first, we simply don't like it to get all hot and nasty on this forum. Although we like to have fun on the forum, I don't find this kind of writing entertainment, I prefer checkering talk to flames or butthead statements. {none directed at you at this time}

It comes down to that this is a specialized forum on Lugers, so when it gets OT, we watch it close and close or delete the subject when it gets too far off track.

Ed and hopefully off of the <img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />

ratdog · 07-16-2003, 12:24 PM

no problem......................

lugerholsterrepair · 07-16-2003, 12:27 PM

Ratdog, I see you are fond of quotes by Famous people so here's one for you...

"Go away kid, ya bother me" W.C. Fields.

Jerry Burney

unspellable · 07-16-2003, 12:47 PM

ratdog,

Yes, we have such a thing as free speech. This means you are entitled to get up on your soapbox and say whatever you wish. The key word is "your" soapbox, not somebody else's soapbox. Freedom of speech does not mean that anyone is obliged to listen.

The point in having a forum is that it is a place for discussion on whatever topic the forum is about. Otherwise you might just as well have a totally open website that covers everything from kings to cabbages and sealing wax. Now imagine trying to find a posting of interest to yourself at such a chaotic website. We discuss Parabellums here. When I wish to talk about a Dan Wesson I go to the Dan Wesson site. Unfortunately, not moderated, and plagued with non-relevant porno spam. (And by porno, I mean I am too young to be viewing such things without the permission of my great-grandparents, not that it is just spam selling mortgages or diet supplements.)

I am a member at several forums. It's been pretty obvious that without some form of moderating they eventually descend into chaos.

Let's get back to arguing about Parabellums.

Doubs · 07-16-2003, 01:32 PM

I don't wish to "pile on" Ratdog or put too fine a point on it but, as a fairly early member of the forum, I've been witness to some unpleasant exchanges that resulted in the exit of several noted collectors. The knowledge of one emminently qualified collector was questioned in a rude manner by an obnoxious individual with no credibility whatsoever. The collector chose to leave the forum. It was a loss the Luger Forum didn't need to suffer.

This forum is for discussion of LUGERS and related subjects. It is for the exchange of information, data, experiences and all manner of things LUGER. If the subject strays too far afield or becomes too personal then I, for one, support the moderators 100% to cut short, warn or ban any member who abuses their forum priviledges.

No one is picking on you, Ratdog, but the rules are reasonable and if you find you can't abide by them then there are many forums availabe for you to vent on any subject you like. However, ALL of the best gun related forums will toss you quickly if you insist on starting trouble and that's as it should be.

Please stay and learn as well as educate us with your unique knowledge. All we ask is that you play nicely.

Heydrich · 07-16-2003, 04:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The knowledge of one emminently qualified collector was questioned in a rude manner by an obnoxious individual with no credibility whatsoever. The collector chose to leave the forum.<hr /></blockquote>I was that obnoxious individual. And I can’t relate how much I bitterly regret that post I made to Jan Still. Ratdog, let me assure you to the highest order, that the moderators here (especially John Sabato) are extremely fair and objective. John had every right to boot my butt out of the forum, and I would have understood, and he didn’t.

And for everyone’s information, Freedom of Speech rights do not legally apply to Internet sites and BBS systems. You see, back in the 1980s, when BBS (Bulletin Board Systems, for those who were not on the Net back then, I still have my 1200 baud modem from 1988) systems become popular, the Supreme Court handed down a ruling that stated that they are basically a publication, like a magazine or a newspaper. So in effect, the owners of a Web site or BBS can edit the contents as they see fit. This includes content and flaming.

As to Still, I sent him a private e-mail apologizing for what I did, and to my great surprise, he replied and accepted it. The rest of what he wrote to me I’m going to keep to myself. And I’ll be the first to admit that I have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to Lugers, since I only have one, and everything I know about them I’ve learned from this interesting forum.

Come to think of it, that no credibility comment is a great example for why a site needs strong anti-flame rules. Because the unnamed person who is being slammed might actually read that post at one time or another...

Doubs · 07-16-2003, 06:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Heydrich:
Come to think of it, that no credibility comment is a great example for why a site needs strong anti-flame rules. Because the unnamed person who is being slammed might actually read that post at one time or another...[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>If my life depended upon it, I couldn't have named the person who had the exchange with Jan. IMO, few on this forum remember who, exactly, was involved. My comment, which I believe to be accurate, was intended to illustrate what can happen when things get out of hand and nothing more. I had no intention of identifying the individuals involved. It was water under the bridge AFAIC but served to make the point I was trying to make. As you've elected to identify yourself to the forum, if I've unintentionally opened an old wound or offended you, I apologize to you openly on the forum.

07-16-2003, 07:44 AM	#1
ratdog User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Censorship?!? John, just out of curiosity, how much are you getting paid to be a censor? Why can't people just discuss things, no matter what the subject? All these forums give someone a title and it seems to empower them with some sort of idea that they must "control" things. Hell, they are just web sites, not some organization like the FBI or CIA! Personally, I don't see why or where someone finds the time to monitor these forums for idiots (like me), you/they must have obligations in their life much more important than some web page. So now you can feel powerful and ban me for speaking my feelings, I have found this makes "moderators" feel important.............Bruce

07-16-2003, 08:48 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Bruce, (Ratdog) I will put this in the simplest of terms... this forum is privately owned and operated for the benefit of the Luger enthusiast community world-wide. My time is volunteered... as is the time of all the moderators... My time is volunteered because I enjoy this hobby, and most all of the people who participate or are interested in it... I have plenty of other productive things to do, but choose to spend some of my time here, attempting to make this a better place to visit than your average internet gun forum. This forum has rules for those who wish to participate... if you can't play by the rules as decided by the management, which includes the "owner" (personally finances the entire operation),a nine member board of directors, and the moderators, then you don't get to play... You get to make the decision whether or not you will abide by the rules... the management of the forum gets to decide whether or not your behavior is acceptable...and in the best interests of the membership at large. This forum nearly perished in June of 2001 due to the kind of activity that you have "endorsed"... Since it's recovery from the ashes... It has flourished and this has been the direct result of effective enforcement of the rules... That includes censorship of language that is not in good taste, or poor manners...and the banning of "members" who choose not to comply with the agreement they acknowledged to become part of this forum... That has happened only two times in the 5 year history of this board... Your posts and questions are welcomed here... as long as you stay within the guidelines that are there for us all. For every voice like yours that implies that your freedoms are being violated... there are hundreds of encouraging voices that sit back quietly and send back channel messages with thanks for making this a "safe" place to visit... even with your child of reading age sitting in your lap if you so choose... The choice to participate in the forum is yours...the choice to accept what the "management" considers to be violations of the terms of service and Forum Decorum is exclusively ours... An Organization without management is anarchy not freedom. BTW, since this message thread has nothing to do with P-08 Military Lugers I am moving it to the General Discussion Forum where it belongs... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-16-2003, 10:30 AM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Thanks John Dunkle and John Sabato for making this a wholesome site for discussions of Lugers. If I look at the VAST majority of sites on the net it sickens me the trash that is out there. I am grateful indeed for this site to discuss Lugers and leave the rest of the trash outside this forums venue. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-16-2003, 11:34 AM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Ratdog, I am unaware of what started your rant about Luger Forum but you are beginning to sound like a social misfit. Attacking the owner of this great site, the moderators and the members way of doing things here. So now you can feel powerful and ban me for speaking my feelings, I have found this makes "moderators" feel important.............Bruce As a moderator I do not enjoy censoring statements on the Forum and in fact have never had to do so but from your statement above you apparently have had the pleasure on another Forum. If this Forum is not to your liking I would suggest you either adjust your attitude and fit in, contribute something or exit on your own accord. Those of us who enjoy it are here for a purpose...We accept the restrictions for the greater good and do not use freedom of speech as a crutch for vitrolic antisocial rantings. We use Freedom of Speech for more important subjects. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-16-2003, 11:59 AM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Bruce, I am inclined to allow things to go a bit further, as a moderator my standards are: 1. Personnel attacks I will monitor closely and probably give a warning. 2. I don't mind the light joke, and have contributed to some of them, but they easily get out of hand. 3. Talking Nazi on the forum invariably leads to hot tempers, so unless you keep it to Nazi era item talk, specifically holsters and Lugers, you'll get the topic closed or deleted. 4. Sexual kidding to a very small degree I don't have a problem with, (well actually I don't mind kidding like that), but in a "public" place like this, it had better be very small degree, some of the other moderators won't agree with that degree. 5. There is no such thing as First Amendment rights on a private forum, it just doesn't exist, as the First Amendment Right deals with gov't or as is commonly seen, newspapers, TV etc., and they get controlled by gov't rules since that is how our society works. This is privately funded by John Dunkle and even if he took ads and other payment, it is a private forum and 1st Amendment rights do not apply. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-16-2003, 07:58 AM	#2
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	ratdog, see the history of the flame wars at this forum in its previous incarnation. Then check out the Dan Wesson forum for an example of a nice gun nut's forum getting porno spam for lack of a moderator.

07-16-2003, 08:27 AM	#3
ratdog User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't understand the terminology used. What is "spam" and its affect on a forum, and how bad can it be if it's porn!?! The only spam I have heard reference to is junk email, and it is ALL porn, just delete it and problem solved.

07-16-2003, 09:34 AM	#5
ratdog User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So who is to say what is acceptable, you certainly aren't capable or anyone on the "board", the Supreme Court isn't even able to say what's acceptable! That is what freedom of speech and expression is about. A bunch of guys who want control over something want to be able to say "I don't like that, get rid of it". A great man once said, and I quote "censorship is brought about by the inability of someone to control their own urges!". Just had to get this off my chest and now I will leave it be........................Bruce

07-16-2003, 10:06 AM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Bruce, In addition to what John S. has stated, we (the moderators) try not to allow topic discussion to stray too far from the topic of lugers and pistols/shooting in general. If you are interested in posting a Nazi discussion on a discussion forum, you might want to visit the following : http://www.thirdreichforum.com/ They seem to have many interesting discussion, but they even have some rules there...as well... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-16-2003, 10:18 AM	#7
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Bruce, John S. - and all the "Moderators" try to keep the discussions in-line to the subject of this Forum. It's really sort of simple. In other words - if you want to discuss porn - go to a porn forum. If you want to discuss cars, go to an automotive Forum. This would not be those Forums. Folks don't come here to read those subjects here. The second objective is to maintain some degree of social skills while posting - in short - flaming won't be tolerated. That's pretty simple as well. Finally - we also have certain rules about posts that may be considered libelous. As the website owner, the liability for those posts are not shared. I think the post by John S. was right on target. Thanks John..!

07-16-2003, 10:40 AM	#9
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Thanks Thor and all..!!! Also - unspellable - I hang out on that site when I get some time, but after the episodes on the DW Forum for the past few months, stopped posting to that one - for exactly the reason you cited in your post...!!!

07-16-2003, 11:39 AM	#11
PACKET User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: FL. Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks John Sabato for that exquisitely worded reply. Ratdog needs to understand that while he has the right of free speech, he does not have the right to be published in a private forum. The rules here are abundantly clear.

07-16-2003, 11:58 AM	#12
ratdog User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What got me started was a thread was stopped when it got into a debate about owning a weapon that killed innocent civilians. It was announced that it got out of control and was better suited for "a Chicago barroom" instead of here. So from one misfit to another I thought that statement made no sense. Excuse me for not following "your" rules. It offended someone so it was shut down, what about the people it didn't offend- they had no say. I feel that is more entertaining to read than how many checkers a Luger grip should have, it's moe real and honest. Just this "social misfits" opinion. Oh by the way MODERATORS if you are listening, that is a slanderous name I was called by Holster, please reprimand him..............

07-16-2003, 12:21 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by ratdog: <strong>What got me started was a thread was stopped when it got into a debate about owning a weapon that killed innocent civilians. It was announced that it got out of control ... ...I thought that statement made no sense. I feel that is more entertaining to read than how many checkers a Luger grip should have, it's more real and honest. ..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Ratdog, first, we simply don't like it to get all hot and nasty on this forum. Although we like to have fun on the forum, I don't find this kind of writing entertainment, I prefer checkering talk to flames or butthead statements. {none directed at you at this time} It comes down to that this is a specialized forum on Lugers, so when it gets OT, we watch it close and close or delete the subject when it gets too far off track. Ed and hopefully off of the <img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-16-2003, 12:24 PM	#15
ratdog User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	no problem......................

07-16-2003, 12:27 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Ratdog, I see you are fond of quotes by Famous people so here's one for you... "Go away kid, ya bother me" W.C. Fields. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-16-2003, 12:47 PM	#17
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	ratdog, Yes, we have such a thing as free speech. This means you are entitled to get up on your soapbox and say whatever you wish. The key word is "your" soapbox, not somebody else's soapbox. Freedom of speech does not mean that anyone is obliged to listen. The point in having a forum is that it is a place for discussion on whatever topic the forum is about. Otherwise you might just as well have a totally open website that covers everything from kings to cabbages and sealing wax. Now imagine trying to find a posting of interest to yourself at such a chaotic website. We discuss Parabellums here. When I wish to talk about a Dan Wesson I go to the Dan Wesson site. Unfortunately, not moderated, and plagued with non-relevant porno spam. (And by porno, I mean I am too young to be viewing such things without the permission of my great-grandparents, not that it is just spam selling mortgages or diet supplements.) I am a member at several forums. It's been pretty obvious that without some form of moderating they eventually descend into chaos. Let's get back to arguing about Parabellums.

07-16-2003, 01:32 PM	#18
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	I don't wish to "pile on" Ratdog or put too fine a point on it but, as a fairly early member of the forum, I've been witness to some unpleasant exchanges that resulted in the exit of several noted collectors. The knowledge of one emminently qualified collector was questioned in a rude manner by an obnoxious individual with no credibility whatsoever. The collector chose to leave the forum. It was a loss the Luger Forum didn't need to suffer. This forum is for discussion of LUGERS and related subjects. It is for the exchange of information, data, experiences and all manner of things LUGER. If the subject strays too far afield or becomes too personal then I, for one, support the moderators 100% to cut short, warn or ban any member who abuses their forum priviledges. No one is picking on you, Ratdog, but the rules are reasonable and if you find you can't abide by them then there are many forums availabe for you to vent on any subject you like. However, ALL of the best gun related forums will toss you quickly if you insist on starting trouble and that's as it should be. Please stay and learn as well as educate us with your unique knowledge. All we ask is that you play nicely.

07-16-2003, 04:54 PM	#19
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The knowledge of one emminently qualified collector was questioned in a rude manner by an obnoxious individual with no credibility whatsoever. The collector chose to leave the forum.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I was that obnoxious individual. And I can’t relate how much I bitterly regret that post I made to Jan Still. Ratdog, let me assure you to the highest order, that the moderators here (especially John Sabato) are extremely fair and objective. John had every right to boot my butt out of the forum, and I would have understood, and he didn’t. And for everyone’s information, Freedom of Speech rights do not legally apply to Internet sites and BBS systems. You see, back in the 1980s, when BBS (Bulletin Board Systems, for those who were not on the Net back then, I still have my 1200 baud modem from 1988) systems become popular, the Supreme Court handed down a ruling that stated that they are basically a publication, like a magazine or a newspaper. So in effect, the owners of a Web site or BBS can edit the contents as they see fit. This includes content and flaming. As to Still, I sent him a private e-mail apologizing for what I did, and to my great surprise, he replied and accepted it. The rest of what he wrote to me I’m going to keep to myself. And I’ll be the first to admit that I have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to Lugers, since I only have one, and everything I know about them I’ve learned from this interesting forum. Come to think of it, that no credibility comment is a great example for why a site needs strong anti-flame rules. Because the unnamed person who is being slammed might actually read that post at one time or another...

07-16-2003, 06:04 PM	#20
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Heydrich: Come to think of it, that no credibility comment is a great example for why a site needs strong anti-flame rules. Because the unnamed person who is being slammed might actually read that post at one time or another...[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If my life depended upon it, I couldn't have named the person who had the exchange with Jan. IMO, few on this forum remember who, exactly, was involved. My comment, which I believe to be accurate, was intended to illustrate what can happen when things get out of hand and nothing more. I had no intention of identifying the individuals involved. It was water under the bridge AFAIC but served to make the point I was trying to make. As you've elected to identify yourself to the forum, if I've unintentionally opened an old wound or offended you, I apologize to you openly on the forum.