C96 serial number legal question

unspellable · 12-19-2002, 01:02 PM

I have seen a C96 Model 1930 with a serial number on the receiver but none on the frame.

Do not our federal firearms laws require a serial number on the frame of any pistol manufactured from 1934 onwards?

The C96 M1930 would have been manufactured from 1930 through 1937.

This is sort of in the same ambiguous territory as a Luger cannon being able to fire without the frame.

Edward Tinker · 12-19-2002, 01:40 PM

Purely a guess, but since they were made in germany and possibly brought back in a duffle bag or suitcase, then "our" laws wouldn't matter?

John Sabato · 12-19-2002, 02:28 PM

As long as the gun was MANUFACTURED that way, there wouldn't be a problem...

Where you have a problem is if you possess, or create a firearm with a "defaced" serial number...

A serial number can only be modified or moved with the express written permission of the ATF. When my Colt Combat Commander was modified by Lewis W. Seecamp in 1975 to be a double action, it was necessary that the serial number be moved from the right side of the frame so that machine operations could take place. The gunsmith moved the serial number to the bottom of the front of the frame but only with ATF pre-approval as he was re-manufacturing the pistol.

Got a gun that meets that description of having the serial number defaced (which includes removed) on the frame? Then the name of your problem is FELONY and I don't envy you. [img]eek.gif[/img]

Doubs · 12-19-2002, 06:00 PM

I've never seen a Broomhandle frame without a serial number. Nor I have ever read of one. If German-made, the number has surely been removed... unless it's a "lunchbox special", of course. The only other possibilities I can think of are Chinese manufacture OR manufacture along the Pankistan - India - Afghanistan border areas. I can't imagine Mauser turning out a frame unnumbered.

Roadkill · 12-19-2002, 08:24 PM

Could the term "sterile" apply? If there is any interest I can expound on this possibility.

rk

Big Brother · 12-19-2002, 11:35 PM

I can confirm that I once owned an Early Mauser 1930 Model (serial number in the 843000 range)that had no serial number on the frame. Only the last three digits were stamped on the frame internally. The last three digits also appeared on the magazine floor plate inside. The full serial number was on the barrel extension only at the usual place. Yet this gun was obviously an all original Mauser manufactured C-96!

Lugerdoc · 12-20-2002, 10:55 AM

Unspeakable, Big Brother is correct. The only serial number on a M1930 Frame, is the last 3 or 4 numbers stamped internally at the very top/front of the frame, which you can only see when disassembled. Tom H.

Michigan Gunner · 12-20-2002, 07:14 PM

Here in the People's Republic of Michigan, all handguns must be registered. When I registered my Luger, the State Police sent me a letter requesting more information, ID marks, on the gun.
They said that Lugers can have the same serial numbers.

Is this correct?

Lock and Load!

Kyrie · 12-20-2002, 08:30 PM

Hi unspellable,

The requirement for a serial number dates to GCA Ã¢??68. Before that serial numbers on firearms were not required. If you should come across a firearm made prior to that without a serial number, the correct entry for Ã¢??serial numberÃ¢?Â on any document, per ATF, is Ã¢??NSNÃ¢?Â (indicating No Serial Number).

The serial number of C96Ã¢??s changed in the 1930Ã¢??s with the last C96Ã¢??s produced having only one part serial numbered, and that part was the barrel extension. The serial number was placed just behind the rear sight.

Hope this helps!

Warm regards,

Kyrie

Doubs · 12-20-2002, 11:10 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Lugerdoc:
<strong>Unspeakable, Big Brother is correct. The only serial number on a M1930 Frame, is the last 3 or 4 numbers stamped internally at the very top/front of the frame, which you can only see when disassembled. Tom H.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tom, reference the serial number placement on the 1930 Broom, according to "System Mauser" by Breathed, Jr. & Schroeder, Jr., the Transitional Model 1930 and the Early Model 1930 were both serial numbered on the rear of the frame above the grip. Later Model 1930's were only numbered on the barrel extension.

I've owned several 1930 Brooms and they all were serial numbered on the frame. I don't recall ever seing one that wasn't but obviously they exist. I should have checked my reference books before I spoke. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

Doubs · 12-20-2002, 11:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Michigan Gunner:
<strong>Here in the People's Republic of Michigan, all handguns must be registered. When I registered my Luger, the State Police sent me a letter requesting more information, ID marks, on the gun.
They said that Lugers can have the same serial numbers.Is this correct? Lock and Load! </strong><hr></blockquote>

MG, they are correct. To properly ID YOUR specific pistol include the following:

Maker (DWM, Erfurt, Mauser etc.); Barrel length; Caliber; Year Date (if any); Serial number on the frame INCLUDING any suffix letter that appears below the numbers (example 1234a or 1234e). (Not all Lugers will have a suffix letter but many do.) I'd also include if it's a Navy model or Artillery model. The Artillery model can have the same serial number, year date and maker as a standard 4" barrel model as each had it's own serial range that duplicated in some years.

If it's a mis-match between the frame and cannon assembly, report the serial numbers on both. If it has police or military unit markings, include them.

With the above data, your specific Luger should be easily identified.

12-19-2002, 01:02 PM	#1
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	C96 serial number legal question I have seen a C96 Model 1930 with a serial number on the receiver but none on the frame. Do not our federal firearms laws require a serial number on the frame of any pistol manufactured from 1934 onwards? The C96 M1930 would have been manufactured from 1930 through 1937. This is sort of in the same ambiguous territory as a Luger cannon being able to fire without the frame.

12-19-2002, 01:40 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Purely a guess, but since they were made in germany and possibly brought back in a duffle bag or suitcase, then "our" laws wouldn't matter? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-19-2002, 02:28 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	As long as the gun was MANUFACTURED that way, there wouldn't be a problem... Where you have a problem is if you possess, or create a firearm with a "defaced" serial number... A serial number can only be modified or moved with the express written permission of the ATF. When my Colt Combat Commander was modified by Lewis W. Seecamp in 1975 to be a double action, it was necessary that the serial number be moved from the right side of the frame so that machine operations could take place. The gunsmith moved the serial number to the bottom of the front of the frame but only with ATF pre-approval as he was re-manufacturing the pistol. Got a gun that meets that description of having the serial number defaced (which includes removed) on the frame? Then the name of your problem is FELONY and I don't envy you. [img]eek.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-20-2002, 10:55 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Unspeakable, Big Brother is correct. The only serial number on a M1930 Frame, is the last 3 or 4 numbers stamped internally at the very top/front of the frame, which you can only see when disassembled. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-19-2002, 06:00 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 790 Thanked 1,675 Times in 550 Posts	I've never seen a Broomhandle frame without a serial number. Nor I have ever read of one. If German-made, the number has surely been removed... unless it's a "lunchbox special", of course. The only other possibilities I can think of are Chinese manufacture OR manufacture along the Pankistan - India - Afghanistan border areas. I can't imagine Mauser turning out a frame unnumbered.

12-19-2002, 08:24 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Could the term "sterile" apply? If there is any interest I can expound on this possibility. rk

12-19-2002, 11:35 PM	#6
Big Brother New User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Quebec, Canada Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I can confirm that I once owned an Early Mauser 1930 Model (serial number in the 843000 range)that had no serial number on the frame. Only the last three digits were stamped on the frame internally. The last three digits also appeared on the magazine floor plate inside. The full serial number was on the barrel extension only at the usual place. Yet this gun was obviously an all original Mauser manufactured C-96!

12-20-2002, 07:14 PM	#8
Michigan Gunner User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Michigan, on the border Posts: 75 Thanks: 2 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	Here in the People's Republic of Michigan, all handguns must be registered. When I registered my Luger, the State Police sent me a letter requesting more information, ID marks, on the gun. They said that Lugers can have the same serial numbers. Is this correct? Lock and Load!

12-20-2002, 08:30 PM	#9
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Hi unspellable, The requirement for a serial number dates to GCA Ã¢??68. Before that serial numbers on firearms were not required. If you should come across a firearm made prior to that without a serial number, the correct entry for Ã¢??serial numberÃ¢?Â on any document, per ATF, is Ã¢??NSNÃ¢?Â (indicating No Serial Number). The serial number of C96Ã¢??s changed in the 1930Ã¢??s with the last C96Ã¢??s produced having only one part serial numbered, and that part was the barrel extension. The serial number was placed just behind the rear sight. Hope this helps! Warm regards, Kyrie

12-20-2002, 11:10 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 790 Thanked 1,675 Times in 550 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Lugerdoc: <strong>Unspeakable, Big Brother is correct. The only serial number on a M1930 Frame, is the last 3 or 4 numbers stamped internally at the very top/front of the frame, which you can only see when disassembled. Tom H.</strong><hr></blockquote> Tom, reference the serial number placement on the 1930 Broom, according to "System Mauser" by Breathed, Jr. & Schroeder, Jr., the Transitional Model 1930 and the Early Model 1930 were both serial numbered on the rear of the frame above the grip. Later Model 1930's were only numbered on the barrel extension. I've owned several 1930 Brooms and they all were serial numbered on the frame. I don't recall ever seing one that wasn't but obviously they exist. I should have checked my reference books before I spoke. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

12-20-2002, 11:20 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 790 Thanked 1,675 Times in 550 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Michigan Gunner: <strong>Here in the People's Republic of Michigan, all handguns must be registered. When I registered my Luger, the State Police sent me a letter requesting more information, ID marks, on the gun. They said that Lugers can have the same serial numbers.Is this correct? Lock and Load! </strong><hr></blockquote> MG, they are correct. To properly ID YOUR specific pistol include the following: Maker (DWM, Erfurt, Mauser etc.); Barrel length; Caliber; Year Date (if any); Serial number on the frame INCLUDING any suffix letter that appears below the numbers (example 1234a or 1234e). (Not all Lugers will have a suffix letter but many do.) I'd also include if it's a Navy model or Artillery model. The Artillery model can have the same serial number, year date and maker as a standard 4" barrel model as each had it's own serial range that duplicated in some years. If it's a mis-match between the frame and cannon assembly, report the serial numbers on both. If it has police or military unit markings, include them. With the above data, your specific Luger should be easily identified.