MAX Show Report

Navy · 09-29-2002, 03:41 PM

All,

Did the MAX show in Monroeville PA again this year with my unindicted co-conspirator and your assistant Navy Luger forum moderator Derek.

It started off bad as upon arrival at the Radisson, I was told that my room had been cancelled. After straigytening that out, I lugged about 4 cubic feet of misc Luger holsters, pistols and arcane treasures of many sorts into the ExpoMart, only to find someone had decided to use my table after the show management said I apparently was a no-show. After disabusing all concerned of that notion, I started setting up and as is predictable at a MAX show, the "Dealer-Only" sessions are when the most action occurs.

Sold all but 3 pistols I had brought and about half the holsters, which bankrolled the acquisition of a beautiful 06 First Issue Unaltered, which I wrote about previously.

On the floor I saw lots of lugers and lots of boosted guns. One particular vendor had 3 '06 Navys and a 1920 carbine in his display. He appeared that he would pass out when I informed him very gently that all 4 pieces were re-blues and were done with salt blue! He said that he knew nothing about Lugers but had bought a large collection and these 4 were a part of it.

Likewise saw a completely re-done 08 carbine-restrawed and reblued and wood refinished. Asking price was $6100 but the guy said he would take $5K. The re-blue was done right over the old finish. No buffing or polishing, so it stood out like a sore thumb.I did get a solid lead on a documented authentic '04 Navy that I am initiating negotiations about.

I did score a couple of neat Imperial Uboat items to accompany my Uboat marked 06 as well as a KM Uboat combat clasp I will probably run on Ebay unless someone on the forum wants it.
Lots and lots of fake KM holsters.

It was extremely pleasant to see some old pals, Charlie Justman of Riverbend Sports, who now has about 12 of my holsters, Ralph and Nancy S., Mike Morris, Heinrich Lutsjen among others and a fellow forum lurker, Carl.

I am pretty sure I won't do MAX again, as the old saying goes, "So much pulling for so little wool."

Tom A.

Brandon · 09-29-2002, 04:41 PM

Tom,
I have wanted to go to the MAX show for a couple of years now, but after hearing your report it doesn't sound like my kind of show!

Thats the trouble with shows now, way too many fakes involved!!!

Regards,Brandon

Edward Tinker · 09-29-2002, 06:11 PM

I think shooters are the way to go Tom! So many reblues out there and out and out fakery. But, I must say I enjoyed your day, nice writing!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Heinz · 09-29-2002, 07:18 PM

Tom, will you be posting pictures of your new 1st issue?

You need to get a good digital camera and start a gallery of prominent boosted Lugers, but then they would not let you back in any shows :-)

Thanks for the report.

Navy · 09-29-2002, 08:29 PM

All,

I will of course bug John Sabato, or Saint John as I call him, to post my pix of First Issue Unaltered SN 130. And will of course do a complete write-up as time permits.

I like the idea of taking pix at a show...just wonder how long it would be before the schysters, boosters and knaves would get wise?

For John Sabato, if you read this:

A suggestion: The Forum, IMHO, needs to have a Luger FAQ column, to eliminate all the duplicative information, And, and this is a very big and, I suggest we have a database column, wherein every type of toggle-top the membership comes across is reported by type, SN and any peculiarities, such as property marks, etc. This may potentially save future collectors from being stung! My zwei pfennigs..

Tom A.

PS..
I have a Reichskanzellor Standart, a bona fide original one, c. 1x1 M. that is looking for a home.Pix avail.
<img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Doubs · 09-29-2002, 09:37 PM

Tom A., thanks for an interesting report. It is distresing to read of the large numbers of fake Lugers.

I agree on the need for a Luger FAQ section. Some questions pop up continually and a good FAQ section would answer 95% of the most common inquires. It's something I've thought about for quite awhile now and I'm glad you've made the proposal. John, how about it?

Edward Tinker · 09-29-2002, 09:43 PM

I am willing to compile a FAQ (I should say, expand upon the one we laready have).

If we go over the pages we already have (this is in conjuction with the many pages we have already in the general information pages) and use information we have talked about.

If people want to send me information, such as commoin questions or if you have a mini FAQ already in computer notes, I will compile it all together.

Send me common questions and I will use those to.

Ed mailto:66mustang@palouse.com66mustang@palouse.com</a>

Brandon · 09-29-2002, 09:46 PM

I agree with Tom and Doubs!

The first question I ever asked at the forum was: what is an import mark?

A Luger FAQ would provinde answers, without the same questions being repeatedly asked! I think it would be a fabulous addition to the forum!!!

Glad You mentioned it Tom... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Brandon...

Ron Wood · 09-29-2002, 09:59 PM

Tom,
Thanks on the report on the MAX show. I'm like Brandon, I have not been able to work that show into my plans, so it is gratifying to know that I didn't miss that much.

I really wish you well on your contact for the '04 Navy. It would be nice to see someone get a real one for a change. Folks haven't been having too much luck with authentic pieces lately.

Brandon · 09-29-2002, 10:07 PM

Tom,
Ron and Me demand to see pictures of that '04 Navy if everything works out... [img]smile.gif[/img] !

Good Luck!
Brandon...

Heinz · 09-30-2002, 09:04 PM

I would be willing to set up a database in EXCEL. I am not sure if it cold be linked with the forum pages?

Is that a possibility John?

Dwight Gruber · 09-30-2002, 09:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Tom A:
<strong>He appeared that he would pass out when I informed him very gently that all 4 pieces were re-blues and were done with salt blue</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tom, how do you tell someone such a momentous thing without sounding patronizing, or like you are putting the knock on their Lugers, or making them want to kill the messenger? (A serious question!)

--Dwight

John Sabato · 10-01-2002, 11:46 AM

To All, As you read this post, words sometimes come across as pretty cold... no frost is intended... I just want to let you folks know that if saying "let there be a database" was all it would take to get this thing rolling... I would be the first to say it... and after it was created I would love to say that I found that "it was good!"

Updating the Lugerforum FAQ... If Ed Tinker creates it, I will be more than glad to do the work on posting it... Microsoft Word format would be fine Ed...

Tom A, The Toggle-Top Database... This is a GREAT IDEA, now who among us is going to put in the programming effort to make it work? To paraphrase Brandon...So many questions and so little time...

The problem we have here is controlling the input... how do we authorize individuals to make entries in such a database? How do we prevent modifications of an entry by someone other than the author? This is why an Excel spreadsheet won't work, but thanks for the offer Heinz.

The database would have to allow only one way entries just like posting on a message thread... and only the author of a specific entry or an administrator or moderator would have edit permissions... There would have to be a MAJOR CAVEAT at the opening of the database to warn folks that the database is strictly personal opinion based on first hand observation and the forum disavows any liability for remarks contained herein... (You could really place you faith in that database info... or would you?)

How do we police the truth? [img]confused.gif[/img]

If a forum member calls an available item a fraud, and lists it in the database, does the current seller have any legal legs to stand on for suing the forum for false allegations and loss of income if he claims it to be genuine?

Who is liable for any litigation costs?

Do you see where I am going with this? I really hate to be a wet blanket on such a great suggestion, but this is one of those things that is easier said than done...

This type of activity sounds like a reasonable thing to do, but after reflection there are signifigant programming efforts to get it started and also maintenance efforts and possible legal consequences in areas where IMHO this forum is not currently prepared to play...

Remember that this forum and all the benefits of being a member here exists for FREE to the membership, but not free to the benefactor (John D.) and it operates on volunteer labor (John D., Dok, and myself... and the individual forum moderators.)

Is there someone out there who wants to host this web-based database privately and let the forum just link to it as a public service? [img]confused.gif[/img] Any takers?

I am certainly always open to suggestions for forum improvements and I am more than willing to do my share of the grunt work to make it happen... but I will need more than the great idea... I will need major digital engineering assistance...

I am a computer security consultant to several federal government agencies... when I design something for the government it has to be built to specifications... there must be hard and fast requirements... without target requirements there is no way to meet the mark of acceptance...

So what do you want this database to do?

What are the performance standards that will make its operation acceptable?

What is the level of effort that is required to create it?

What are the resources needed to make it happen?

Who is tasked to do it?

What is the level of effort required to maintain it?

What are the operational, financial and legal implications of creating what you are asking for?

Who owns the information once it is compiled? Is it copyrighted to the forum? What action do we take if somebody copies it and uses it elsewhere?

Wow... you guys have really opened the pandora's box! and I am just getting started... <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

Seriously..., I anxiously welcome all your comments and answers to my questions...

If there was ever a group of folks that had the gumption and the resources to put something like this together, they are the members of this forum...

Droit et avant!

Heinz · 10-01-2002, 06:17 PM

I think we need to look at two sets of requirements and output requirements. If input is in a standard format it can be cut and pasted into a spread sheet. The information would be as presented and could be linked to the person supplying the information. A useful requirement might be that person is the owner. Or for non-owners the rating on originality might be a simple yes/no OPINION. Opinions within a closed group are not statements that can be sued over.
I like the owner restriction. Or a restorers statement that he/she actually modifies the piece. This avoids judgement calls.

For output we could periodically post a pdf file. It is there and cannot be dinked with.

The owners base could be very useful, especially from those of us who own the guns most likely to be boosted at a later date. A litlle wear added to my TLSS rework to cover the removal of Ted's marks could make it a very appealing piece.

Just some thoughts.

09-29-2002, 03:41 PM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	MAX Show Report All, Did the MAX show in Monroeville PA again this year with my unindicted co-conspirator and your assistant Navy Luger forum moderator Derek. It started off bad as upon arrival at the Radisson, I was told that my room had been cancelled. After straigytening that out, I lugged about 4 cubic feet of misc Luger holsters, pistols and arcane treasures of many sorts into the ExpoMart, only to find someone had decided to use my table after the show management said I apparently was a no-show. After disabusing all concerned of that notion, I started setting up and as is predictable at a MAX show, the "Dealer-Only" sessions are when the most action occurs. Sold all but 3 pistols I had brought and about half the holsters, which bankrolled the acquisition of a beautiful 06 First Issue Unaltered, which I wrote about previously. On the floor I saw lots of lugers and lots of boosted guns. One particular vendor had 3 '06 Navys and a 1920 carbine in his display. He appeared that he would pass out when I informed him very gently that all 4 pieces were re-blues and were done with salt blue! He said that he knew nothing about Lugers but had bought a large collection and these 4 were a part of it. Likewise saw a completely re-done 08 carbine-restrawed and reblued and wood refinished. Asking price was $6100 but the guy said he would take $5K. The re-blue was done right over the old finish. No buffing or polishing, so it stood out like a sore thumb.I did get a solid lead on a documented authentic '04 Navy that I am initiating negotiations about. I did score a couple of neat Imperial Uboat items to accompany my Uboat marked 06 as well as a KM Uboat combat clasp I will probably run on Ebay unless someone on the forum wants it. Lots and lots of fake KM holsters. It was extremely pleasant to see some old pals, Charlie Justman of Riverbend Sports, who now has about 12 of my holsters, Ralph and Nancy S., Mike Morris, Heinrich Lutsjen among others and a fellow forum lurker, Carl. I am pretty sure I won't do MAX again, as the old saying goes, "So much pulling for so little wool." Tom A.

09-29-2002, 06:11 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	I think shooters are the way to go Tom! So many reblues out there and out and out fakery. But, I must say I enjoyed your day, nice writing! [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-29-2002, 09:43 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	I am willing to compile a FAQ (I should say, expand upon the one we laready have). If we go over the pages we already have (this is in conjuction with the many pages we have already in the general information pages) and use information we have talked about. If people want to send me information, such as commoin questions or if you have a mini FAQ already in computer notes, I will compile it all together. Send me common questions and I will use those to. Ed mailto:66mustang@palouse.com66mustang@palouse.com</a> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-29-2002, 09:59 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Tom, Thanks on the report on the MAX show. I'm like Brandon, I have not been able to work that show into my plans, so it is gratifying to know that I didn't miss that much. I really wish you well on your contact for the '04 Navy. It would be nice to see someone get a real one for a change. Folks haven't been having too much luck with authentic pieces lately. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-01-2002, 11:46 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	To All, As you read this post, words sometimes come across as pretty cold... no frost is intended... I just want to let you folks know that if saying "let there be a database" was all it would take to get this thing rolling... I would be the first to say it... and after it was created I would love to say that I found that "it was good!" Updating the Lugerforum FAQ... If Ed Tinker creates it, I will be more than glad to do the work on posting it... Microsoft Word format would be fine Ed... Tom A, The Toggle-Top Database... This is a GREAT IDEA, now who among us is going to put in the programming effort to make it work? To paraphrase Brandon...So many questions and so little time... The problem we have here is controlling the input... how do we authorize individuals to make entries in such a database? How do we prevent modifications of an entry by someone other than the author? This is why an Excel spreadsheet won't work, but thanks for the offer Heinz. The database would have to allow only one way entries just like posting on a message thread... and only the author of a specific entry or an administrator or moderator would have edit permissions... There would have to be a MAJOR CAVEAT at the opening of the database to warn folks that the database is strictly personal opinion based on first hand observation and the forum disavows any liability for remarks contained herein... (You could really place you faith in that database info... or would you?) How do we police the truth? [img]confused.gif[/img] If a forum member calls an available item a fraud, and lists it in the database, does the current seller have any legal legs to stand on for suing the forum for false allegations and loss of income if he claims it to be genuine? Who is liable for any litigation costs? Do you see where I am going with this? I really hate to be a wet blanket on such a great suggestion, but this is one of those things that is easier said than done... This type of activity sounds like a reasonable thing to do, but after reflection there are signifigant programming efforts to get it started and also maintenance efforts and possible legal consequences in areas where IMHO this forum is not currently prepared to play... Remember that this forum and all the benefits of being a member here exists for FREE to the membership, but not free to the benefactor (John D.) and it operates on volunteer labor (John D., Dok, and myself... and the individual forum moderators.) Is there someone out there who wants to host this web-based database privately and let the forum just link to it as a public service? [img]confused.gif[/img] Any takers? I am certainly always open to suggestions for forum improvements and I am more than willing to do my share of the grunt work to make it happen... but I will need more than the great idea... I will need major digital engineering assistance... I am a computer security consultant to several federal government agencies... when I design something for the government it has to be built to specifications... there must be hard and fast requirements... without target requirements there is no way to meet the mark of acceptance... So what do you want this database to do? What are the performance standards that will make its operation acceptable? What is the level of effort that is required to create it? What are the resources needed to make it happen? Who is tasked to do it? What is the level of effort required to maintain it? What are the operational, financial and legal implications of creating what you are asking for? Who owns the information once it is compiled? Is it copyrighted to the forum? What action do we take if somebody copies it and uses it elsewhere? Wow... you guys have really opened the pandora's box! and I am just getting started... <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> Seriously..., I anxiously welcome all your comments and answers to my questions... If there was ever a group of folks that had the gumption and the resources to put something like this together, they are the members of this forum... Droit et avant! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-29-2002, 04:41 PM	#2
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, I have wanted to go to the MAX show for a couple of years now, but after hearing your report it doesn't sound like my kind of show! Thats the trouble with shows now, way too many fakes involved!!! Regards,Brandon

09-29-2002, 07:18 PM	#4
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Tom, will you be posting pictures of your new 1st issue? You need to get a good digital camera and start a gallery of prominent boosted Lugers, but then they would not let you back in any shows :-) Thanks for the report.

09-29-2002, 08:29 PM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, I will of course bug John Sabato, or Saint John as I call him, to post my pix of First Issue Unaltered SN 130. And will of course do a complete write-up as time permits. I like the idea of taking pix at a show...just wonder how long it would be before the schysters, boosters and knaves would get wise? For John Sabato, if you read this: A suggestion: The Forum, IMHO, needs to have a Luger FAQ column, to eliminate all the duplicative information, And, and this is a very big and, I suggest we have a database column, wherein every type of toggle-top the membership comes across is reported by type, SN and any peculiarities, such as property marks, etc. This may potentially save future collectors from being stung! My zwei pfennigs.. Tom A. PS.. I have a Reichskanzellor Standart, a bona fide original one, c. 1x1 M. that is looking for a home.Pix avail. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

09-29-2002, 09:37 PM	#6
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	Tom A., thanks for an interesting report. It is distresing to read of the large numbers of fake Lugers. I agree on the need for a Luger FAQ section. Some questions pop up continually and a good FAQ section would answer 95% of the most common inquires. It's something I've thought about for quite awhile now and I'm glad you've made the proposal. John, how about it?

09-29-2002, 09:46 PM	#8
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I agree with Tom and Doubs! The first question I ever asked at the forum was: what is an import mark? A Luger FAQ would provinde answers, without the same questions being repeatedly asked! I think it would be a fabulous addition to the forum!!! Glad You mentioned it Tom... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Brandon...

09-29-2002, 10:07 PM	#10
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, Ron and Me demand to see pictures of that '04 Navy if everything works out... [img]smile.gif[/img] ! Good Luck! Brandon...

09-30-2002, 09:04 PM	#11
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	I would be willing to set up a database in EXCEL. I am not sure if it cold be linked with the forum pages? Is that a possibility John?

09-30-2002, 09:20 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Tom A: <strong>He appeared that he would pass out when I informed him very gently that all 4 pieces were re-blues and were done with salt blue</strong><hr></blockquote> Tom, how do you tell someone such a momentous thing without sounding patronizing, or like you are putting the knock on their Lugers, or making them want to kill the messenger? (A serious question!) --Dwight

10-01-2002, 06:17 PM	#14
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	I think we need to look at two sets of requirements and output requirements. If input is in a standard format it can be cut and pasted into a spread sheet. The information would be as presented and could be linked to the person supplying the information. A useful requirement might be that person is the owner. Or for non-owners the rating on originality might be a simple yes/no OPINION. Opinions within a closed group are not statements that can be sued over. I like the owner restriction. Or a restorers statement that he/she actually modifies the piece. This avoids judgement calls. For output we could periodically post a pdf file. It is there and cannot be dinked with. The owners base could be very useful, especially from those of us who own the guns most likely to be boosted at a later date. A litlle wear added to my TLSS rework to cover the removal of Ted's marks could make it a very appealing piece. Just some thoughts.