How to Spot Rebluing

Lodi Jim · 08-23-2002, 08:19 PM

On Aug 6, Luke posted a question about Buffed, Reblued and Boosted. Several people gave great answers; Ã¢??markingsÃ¢?Â by Jan Still, neat photos by Doubs, etc., etc. I still donÃ¢??t have a clear distinction about bluing. Rust Vs Salt; Original Vs Rebluing? WhatÃ¢??s supposed to be blued, whatÃ¢??s polished?

In Reno someone was looking at a bluing job with his loupe (maybe Pete) and he commented about blue over rust (memories a little fuzzy about that). Anyway, I think IÃ¢??ve seen this written somewhere, on the Forum or some book, but I canÃ¢??t find it.

Can anyone help with a reference point, or better yet a dissertation?

Close-up photos like Doubs posted would be great.

Jim

Luke · 08-23-2002, 08:55 PM

Jim,

While I am still learning (in a frenzy) I can shed some light on this.

I found, much to my chagrin, that one of my "collectable" Lugers had been reblued. The way I detected it follows:

With a 10X loupe I carefully examined an area on the barrel which looked a little rough. Under the loupe it was clear that the "rough" spots were actually tiny rust pits. The problem was that these rust pits had the same beautiful blue finish as the barrel, all the way to the bottom of the pit. While I admit to being an amateur, I am pretty comfortable that rust does not pit a barrel in that manner.

Luke

Herb · 08-23-2002, 09:36 PM

Luke, good observation, rust eats thru blue, blue does not eat rust. Most, possibly not all, modern refinishers use a bead blasting method to remove old blue, rust, etc. This leaves a very nice overall matte finish on the metal before rebluing. This is very easy to recognize once seen, it is just too perfect overall. I could be wrong but I don't think this process was available in the years that Lugers were produced, however sandblasting may have been which would leave a slightly more course look to the metal. Usually an unretouched Luger will exhibit very fine machining marks, especially the barrel where the fine lathe turing marks should be evident, also over the chamber. Other parts will also have fine machining marks evident from the milling and turning. Probably someone with more collecting experience can provide more accurate info on this. Old saying, "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is". If a piece has been reblued, it automatically falls into the category of NRA 'Good' condition.

Pete Ebbink · 08-24-2002, 12:37 PM

Hello Jim,

The lugers I am confused about are the reworks fromthe 1920's era.

If an older piece from the Imperial era was reworked and refinished as many reworks of the 1920 were, some rust left on the gun may have been re-blued over. Maybe some of the advanced folks could give us more advice here...

But the gun we looked over in Reno was a WWII weapon that did have a big rust spot over-blued on the rear grip. There were some other issues with the gun as well. Such as an extractor without 2-digit serial numbers, an extractor that was not "flush" with the top of the receiver, and barrel/frame match-up lines that did not seem to match up at all with one line being much more thickly struck than the other line.

Regards,

Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Brandon · 08-24-2002, 12:53 PM

Pete,
The Wiemar era scares me! There are so many confusing variations!!! I don't know if I'll ever trust my judgement on Wiemar Lugers!... [img]confused.gif[/img]

Brandon

Garfield · 08-24-2002, 05:38 PM

Pete:

If the luger was arsenal reworked during the Weimar period there would not be any "rust" left on the gun prior to it being refinished, providing, of course, that the man/woman whose job it was that day to remove the rust was not inattentive as a result of being in a state of dementia brought about through the loss of a family pet, perhaps?, during a mustard gas attack? Or maybe it could have been just a "snafu" day.

Pete Ebbink · 08-30-2002, 10:05 PM

Come On Folks,

You, who are the long-time collectors and easy spotters of fake and boosted lugers, why not give Jim and others more info. here about how to spot re-blue jobs...?

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Garfield · 08-30-2002, 10:14 PM

Obtain a copy of the Man-at-Arms article by Norin.
It is an excellent primer for a beginner.

Pete Ebbink · 08-30-2002, 10:48 PM

Thank you, sir;

I was not aware of the Norin thread that was running...did a search and found it.

I have asked Doubs to e-mail me a copy...since gun magazines on news stands here in CA-State is a rare thing...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

wterrell · 08-30-2002, 11:17 PM

Here is a link to MAN AT ARMS

LINK:

http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/

Doubs · 08-30-2002, 11:33 PM

I'll be sending the copies of the article out tomorrow to anyone who sends me their e-mail address by private message. I did the copying on my computer at work but I'm only 6 miles away and usually go that way for one reason or another anyway.

For those who have already received the article and have thanked me, I was happy to do it as I know how difficult it can be to find gun magazines in some places.

Edward Tinker · 08-31-2002, 12:03 AM

The link Wes put out had these links:

http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/fakes.html

http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/fraud.html

Lodi Jim · 09-01-2002, 02:03 AM

Thanks guys - great info!

Also found an interesting article at www.armchairgunshow.com/fake1.html.

The whole subject makes one leery about collecting, but when youÃ¢??re hooked, what are you to do?

Jim

Garfield · 09-01-2002, 02:21 AM

Jim:

Life is "leery". Maybe you haven't noticed. It gets worse if you want to be a "collector". If you think/hope that you will be given a break because you are a "newbie", you will be "eaten". Knowledge is your only salvation. Should you not want to expend that effort, try community work. Sorry if that breaks you bubble, however, that, IMHO, is the way it is.

AGE · 09-01-2002, 11:28 PM

Jim,

Stick with good clean shooters for the present until you learn a lot more. If they are clean and sound and you get a fair deal when you buy, you can't loose too much if you decide to sell and upgrade to better collector guns as you learn.

Navy · 09-04-2002, 08:47 AM

Garfield,

Your reply to Jim was laser guided on target. There are carnivores and prey in this game; only knowledge separates the two...

Or as a friend pointed out, the principal difference between intelligence and ignorance is intelligence has limits.

Tom A.

08-23-2002, 08:19 PM	#1
Lodi Jim User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: California Posts: 65 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	How to Spot Rebluing On Aug 6, Luke posted a question about Buffed, Reblued and Boosted. Several people gave great answers; Ã¢??markingsÃ¢?Â by Jan Still, neat photos by Doubs, etc., etc. I still donÃ¢??t have a clear distinction about bluing. Rust Vs Salt; Original Vs Rebluing? WhatÃ¢??s supposed to be blued, whatÃ¢??s polished? In Reno someone was looking at a bluing job with his loupe (maybe Pete) and he commented about blue over rust (memories a little fuzzy about that). Anyway, I think IÃ¢??ve seen this written somewhere, on the Forum or some book, but I canÃ¢??t find it. Can anyone help with a reference point, or better yet a dissertation? Close-up photos like Doubs posted would be great. Jim

08-23-2002, 08:55 PM	#2
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Jim, While I am still learning (in a frenzy) I can shed some light on this. I found, much to my chagrin, that one of my "collectable" Lugers had been reblued. The way I detected it follows: With a 10X loupe I carefully examined an area on the barrel which looked a little rough. Under the loupe it was clear that the "rough" spots were actually tiny rust pits. The problem was that these rust pits had the same beautiful blue finish as the barrel, all the way to the bottom of the pit. While I admit to being an amateur, I am pretty comfortable that rust does not pit a barrel in that manner. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-23-2002, 09:36 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Luke, good observation, rust eats thru blue, blue does not eat rust. Most, possibly not all, modern refinishers use a bead blasting method to remove old blue, rust, etc. This leaves a very nice overall matte finish on the metal before rebluing. This is very easy to recognize once seen, it is just too perfect overall. I could be wrong but I don't think this process was available in the years that Lugers were produced, however sandblasting may have been which would leave a slightly more course look to the metal. Usually an unretouched Luger will exhibit very fine machining marks, especially the barrel where the fine lathe turing marks should be evident, also over the chamber. Other parts will also have fine machining marks evident from the milling and turning. Probably someone with more collecting experience can provide more accurate info on this. Old saying, "if it looks too good to be true, it probably is". If a piece has been reblued, it automatically falls into the category of NRA 'Good' condition. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-30-2002, 11:17 PM	#10
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here is a link to MAN AT ARMS LINK: http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/ __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

08-31-2002, 12:03 AM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	The link Wes put out had these links: http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/fakes.html http://www.manatarmsbooks.com/fraud.html __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-24-2002, 12:37 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Jim, The lugers I am confused about are the reworks fromthe 1920's era. If an older piece from the Imperial era was reworked and refinished as many reworks of the 1920 were, some rust left on the gun may have been re-blued over. Maybe some of the advanced folks could give us more advice here... But the gun we looked over in Reno was a WWII weapon that did have a big rust spot over-blued on the rear grip. There were some other issues with the gun as well. Such as an extractor without 2-digit serial numbers, an extractor that was not "flush" with the top of the receiver, and barrel/frame match-up lines that did not seem to match up at all with one line being much more thickly struck than the other line. Regards, Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-24-2002, 12:53 PM	#5
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, The Wiemar era scares me! There are so many confusing variations!!! I don't know if I'll ever trust my judgement on Wiemar Lugers!... [img]confused.gif[/img] Brandon

08-24-2002, 05:38 PM	#6
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete: If the luger was arsenal reworked during the Weimar period there would not be any "rust" left on the gun prior to it being refinished, providing, of course, that the man/woman whose job it was that day to remove the rust was not inattentive as a result of being in a state of dementia brought about through the loss of a family pet, perhaps?, during a mustard gas attack? Or maybe it could have been just a "snafu" day.

08-30-2002, 10:05 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Come On Folks, You, who are the long-time collectors and easy spotters of fake and boosted lugers, why not give Jim and others more info. here about how to spot re-blue jobs...? Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-30-2002, 10:14 PM	#8
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Obtain a copy of the Man-at-Arms article by Norin. It is an excellent primer for a beginner.

08-30-2002, 10:48 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thank you, sir; I was not aware of the Norin thread that was running...did a search and found it. I have asked Doubs to e-mail me a copy...since gun magazines on news stands here in CA-State is a rare thing... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-30-2002, 11:33 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	I'll be sending the copies of the article out tomorrow to anyone who sends me their e-mail address by private message. I did the copying on my computer at work but I'm only 6 miles away and usually go that way for one reason or another anyway. For those who have already received the article and have thanked me, I was happy to do it as I know how difficult it can be to find gun magazines in some places.

09-01-2002, 02:03 AM	#13
Lodi Jim User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: California Posts: 65 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks guys - great info! Also found an interesting article at www.armchairgunshow.com/fake1.html. The whole subject makes one leery about collecting, but when youÃ¢??re hooked, what are you to do? Jim

09-01-2002, 02:21 AM	#14
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jim: Life is "leery". Maybe you haven't noticed. It gets worse if you want to be a "collector". If you think/hope that you will be given a break because you are a "newbie", you will be "eaten". Knowledge is your only salvation. Should you not want to expend that effort, try community work. Sorry if that breaks you bubble, however, that, IMHO, is the way it is.

09-01-2002, 11:28 PM	#15
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jim, Stick with good clean shooters for the present until you learn a lot more. If they are clean and sound and you get a fair deal when you buy, you can't loose too much if you decide to sell and upgrade to better collector guns as you learn. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

09-04-2002, 08:47 AM	#16
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Garfield, Your reply to Jim was laser guided on target. There are carnivores and prey in this game; only knowledge separates the two... Or as a friend pointed out, the principal difference between intelligence and ignorance is intelligence has limits. Tom A.