Civil disobedience-real long

[Roadkill]

I'll momentarily cast off my self willed and comfortable southern and Alabama culture of hunting, dogs, guns and old trucks for a question that I one day may be forced to answer.
I have listened to a gentleman from Great Britian who has had his guns lawfully taken away from him. Failure to do so would result in imprisonment. I have spoken with a man in the Netherlands who is allowed only to possess five guns at a time after a one year trial period.
I have heard from a man in Germany who has explained the restrictive gun laws in his country. There is a man from France who has indicated gun laws are very imposing. There is a man from Canada attempting to retain a family heirloom and many from Australia who are losing their property. And there is also a gentleman from New Zealand who has told me a shocking story offline in the same line. As with all offline discussions, I do not make them a part of the forum without express permission of the sender.

I said all that to say this: What would I do?
Assume the law has been passed here as it has been in their countries. All are respected democracies. I, as do these other men, now have the option to either obey the law or risk fine, imprisonment, or both. If caught breaking the law I will lose my means of making a living (felons can't work in schools),my bank accounts would be frozen, my house - siezed as part of the illegal action, serve time in a federal prison, lose my family - would your wife agree with the martyr thing as she is thrown out? - in order to retain my guns. The feds know I have guns. Turn them in or risk all of the above. Abide the law in a nation of laws or become a felon. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.
I really don't know if I am made of the stuff to do that. I do not envy the choice they are having to make, and pray I never have to do he same.

rk

[Edward Tinker]

I hear ya.

I don't know either, I imagine I would be like Tac, let them deactivate them.

I like to think that I would turn in all the guns that were known listed as having been bought or transferred...

It would be a horrible thing to contemplate.

If we don't join the NRA, and write our congressmen / congresswomen, then who do we have to blame but ourselves?

[lugercollector]

Hello RK.....as a Luger collector up here in Canada I appreciate your thoughts on government seizure of firearms...the general problem is that once in power these guys see firearms owners as a threat to their existence...here in Canada the Firearms community had a peaceful demonstration at the Nations capital a couple of years ago.....would you believe our ruling politicians had teams of snipers on the rooftops overlooking the demonstration as well as making videotapes of the people in the crowd(probaly the most peaceful demonstation in history)....our Liberal Party has gone on record as saying they think guns only belong in the hands of the police and the army!!!!!!!they love sheep who get led willingly to pay higher taxes,ignore goverment corruption and lose their firearms....fortunately their are still some independent people in this country who have the brave pioneering spirit and recognize that we pay these guys salaries and that they must be held accountable for their actions....Peter...

[lugerholsterrepair]

Roadkill, No one will know what they will do untill they are faced with the situation. Just as in battle, actions will be determined on the spot. It pays to have a battle plan however and to discuss with your Wife how you should react. I personally do not recognize the America we are living in today. It is not the America of my childhood nor what I fought for in Vietnam. It certainly is not the America of my dreams. When enough of our freedoms are whittled away and our sub culture is facing extinction what is left but to resist? Our forefathers had the courage to risk loss of family and fortune, to endure horrible conditions for years to ensure what freedoms we hold dear today. All to erase an oppresive government. Are we so comfortable and secure that we will trade security for oppression? Like I said, I will not know untill the time comes but I have lost all of the freedom I am likely to tolerate and losing the ability to protect my family from criminal preditors would be the proverbial straw that etc. So let the government give it a shot. I suspect that in America they will have a number of Waco situations that might be harder to manage than they might think. I am hoping that the America I know and love would show herself. Jerry Burney

[Big Norm]

RK,
I kinda have a fear of really expressing my opinion here because the forums monitors might get mad at me. And rightfully so, because this is not supposed to me a political forum. I was surprised to hear from you that the government of New Zealand lives in total fear of its honest citizens. I have admired Murrays gun collection and thought that NZ was different from the other British slave nations of Canada and Australia. I say slave because these nations always seem to jump when Britain say jump. My attitude gets me in trouble when I talk to some Canadian gun collector people that I like and has come close to ruining some friendships. Friendships that I would like to keep because these people are good guys. I managed to retain some degree of friendship with them by showing them my 1893 DWM Borchardt. They were very happy to see it because they are permited to own pistols made on or before 1895.
But the truth of the matter is that the American political party that controls the large cities controls the state. In California, The party that controls Los Angeles and San Fransico controls that state. In Colorado, people have told me that the political party that controls Denver and a college town controls that state. Here in Michigan, our newly elected governor promised reparations to Afro-Americans, so she won the city of Detroit by 200,000 votes. Actually, Wayne county, of which Detroit is a huge chunk of. But she only won the state by 120,000 votes. Illinois has a tough time overcoming Chicago and vacinity. And since the Democrats own the printed and televised media with their inaccuracies and bias, the fight is a tough one. Thomas Jefferson was right in his distrust of the media. Then there is the lack of respect for the Constitution that Democrats like Gore and Clinton demonstrated and the throwing out of the military vote. But a discussion of those topics would REALLY make this discussion long.
I am sorry monitors. I know that this forum is supposed to be only about Lugers and it should be. But I tried to hold back my feelings and I was moderately successful. But this is one of those hot buttons.
Big Norm <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

[lugerholsterrepair]

Big Norm, This discussion is about Lugers. If we do not discuss these things once in awhile we will have no Lugers. Jerry Burney

[Big Norm]

Lugerholsterrepair,
thanks a lot. But I understand the position of the moderators and I appreciate it. I get on this forum for relaxation and to talk to a big bunch of people who I enjoy. I really don't what to push an envelope here with what could be construed as a political view. While these are my beliefs, I personally wondered if this was the place to state them. I don't want to be thrown off of this forum. I enjoy being here.
Big Norm

[Edward Tinker]

Big Norm, you'd have to have a lot worse statments than that to inflame me!

But I'm only a small cog on the forum wheel, and I hear ya brother.

[JohnB]

You know, it's really telling how "free" a country we live in, when I type what I truly feel--and then delete it because some FBI goon may be reading this and call upon the Patriot Act to get me arrested for my thoughts...

I will summarize: There are times when Civil Disobedience is appropriate. There will be times when it is not appropriate.

We need to discuss with our spouses and children when to identify those times.

[John D.]

[quote]Originally posted by Big Norm:
<strong>.... I am sorry monitors. I know that this forum is supposed to be only about Lugers and it should be. But I tried to hold back...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Big Norm....

No its not just about Lugers - promise. If it were - I would have unsubscribed a long time ago (Oh - I guess I can't do that [img]smile.gif[/img] - but you get the idea....

As with Ed - you'd have to say a LOT worse to get on anyone's "wrong side" - whatever that is...??? As well - this is the "General" forum - for any topic(s) that have a community interest. This certainly is one of those topics....

As for me, I appreciate this thread a lot and have enjoyed reading it, as I think RK has some terrific insight - again... As well, you make your points with eloquence, Sir... Thanks for sharing them....

My Best to all for a Wonderful Holiday Season...!!

[Roadkill]

John D., thanks for the kind words, as you express compliments many many others are saying " don't give him any encouragement, he's bad enough already", but this has been bothering me. The only difference between me (and us) in other extradordinary events and the men who experienced them is the timing. My life, with the exception of a few self induced abberations, has had very good timing. Should the times change, how will I take care of what others in the past have faced and what many now are having to deal with? Do I have in me what is necessary to respond to the injustice of firearm registration and confistication? The "can't happen here" refrain has faint ineffectual echoes throughout the one time realm of the British Empire. Nuff said, ya'll. Time to get out on the porch with my friends JD and Buster. All the best for the holidays.

rk

[Navy]

Many years ago, as I wore for the first time, Army Green with the black woolen stripes around the blouse cuffs and down the sides of my trousers, I raised my hand and swore my oath as an Officer in the United States Army to "Defend the Constitution from all enemies, both foreign and domestic." Although, I retired from the Army a long time ago, I have not retracted that pledge and probably never will.

I now take heart; the Klintonistas have been routed. Now what must begin is a massive effort to bring the truth to Americans. The dismissal of that quack historian, Besailles, or whatever is name may be, is a good start. Even the WashPost was unkind to him.

Have patience and perserverance, fellow sons of liberty. We shall achieve victory in this as well as in the other struggles that face free men.

Our values and our instutions have been made mockery by those of our citizenship who hold their honor cheap. Such jackals will reap the contempt they so deserve as the righteousness of liberty and freedom triumphs over expedius "politically correct" solutions. The current situation requires spines of steel; not Alan Alda-esque sensitivities.

My friends, we are witness to the opening chords-the first violin is tuning-of what will proove to be a Wagnerian Opera-style clash of civilizations. They will subdue us and impose sharia law or we will prevail. There is no middle ground.The decision of how this will end is ours. My fear is that we have not the stomach.

And this, my friends, is why your Second Amendment Rights are more important than ever before.

Tom A.

[G.T.]

Hello Gentlemen! This is a great subject, and thread..... I have wondered the same as everyone else, would I have the right metal, if the threat arose.... and, as the rest have stated, we would just have to see... the decision to fight, and when to fight is something that is possessed by few... to follow a person like this is realitivly easy, as usually you have no choice at that point... the stone is thrown, so to speak! But, these unique individuals are all around us, veterans, teachers, coaches, neighbors.... they simply take a stand... and, they take the consequences... if others agree, it becomes a movement, if not, it is a disaster... Our country is unique in the fact that many of the men that make a stand are people of means, and they have something to lose.. most revolutions are started by poor or lower class groups... this is not the case with our revolutionary fore-fathers... they were most all aristocrates, and people from all walks of life followed them, so that we can be free... If ever the time ever comes... we will all know it has arrived... whether we are poor or rich, we are no different then they... till...later...G.T.

[Mark A]

Well Said Tom! G.T. too.
I see the problem not as a lack of courage on the part of gun owners but a clever strategy of the enemy to difuse the focus of resistance. If Jackbooted Thugs hit the streets tomorrow to collect all the guns we'd all turn out and there'd be a solid response. They won't do it like that. Today New Jersey's governor signed a law to require "smart gun technology" (if somebody can ever make it work). Hey these are just "common sense laws". They'll take us on in small groups. Colorado has closed the evil gunshow loophole, here in Denver we have the scary looking rifle ban. Nobody turned out in the streets with their guns in hand. When it "comes to that" who will still have a gun?
The problem is not cowardice. The problem is you can't legally or morally shoot the enemy.

[susan]

Thank you to all the forum members for showing steadfast respect for the constitutional freedoms we enjoy, and for keeping these freedoms alive with informative and intelligent discussions about the history and technology of your collections. I appreciate having an opportunity to read stories and comments from true caretakers of history, often first-hand knowledge that would otherwise be lost with the passing of this generation.
This thread comes at an auspicious time for me to comment that I feel strongly that there cannot be enough said regarding the defense of the freedom to protect oneself, and country. Sometimes we forget how close to home these things really are, so I will make a point.
Tonight after work, some co-workers and I stopped at a local pub-resturaunt for a holiday libation and celebration. Durring our friendly discussion we were attacked by what I can only presume was a local gang of some sort. What ensued was bloody "hit and run" by the gang, who seemed to be out looking for a situation or simply random violence. Equally appaling as the act itself was the complete apathy of other patrons. After repeated requests for someone to simply call police for help, no one would. I was able to break away and get to my cell phone. The 911 opperator I got on the phone chastised me for talking too loudly into my phone while asking for help, and complained that I should not have used a cell phone to make the call.
The lesson here seems to be that no one cares unless it happens to them. In making the case for preserving the freedom for personal protection I would cite that I can only hope that we don't end up living in a place where only criminals have guns. This could have happened to anyone. Tonight it was a group of caucsian, suit wearing businesspeople. I am scared. Tonight it was me, surrounded by sheeple who wouldn't get involved.
I see the resolution to this as informing, educating, and not being afraid to speak up or get involved. I am not ashamed or afraid to stand up for my constituional freedom. I support others who hold this value as well. <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

[lugerholsterrepair]

Susan, This was and is, exactly my point in a previous posting. In your time of need you were abandoned by other so called Americans who did not give a damn as long as it wasn't their butt in a sling. Others are more than willing to disarm us and have hired body guards armed to the teeth to protect them. I live in a rural area of Colorado that takes a police officer over an hour to arrive at my house if they ever get there. If the Government were to disarm me I would be helpless to defend my family and frankly that is why God put me on this Earth. Another reason why the conceled carry laws should enable every law abiding American that wants to, carry a weapon. I can guarentee you it would be a lot more polite society if you thought the group you were coming up on was armed. It's my opinion that every known criminal gang should be rounded up and executed. We have too many people in this country and on the planet, I don't think we would miss these scum. That would go a long way towards making our society a decent place to live again. The criminal justice system in America is broken just like the medical system. We simply are unwilling to make the tough decisions required for an orderly society and that leaves you and I vulnarable. So, without what Col. Colt called the great equalizer we might as well fall on our own swords so as not to die with dishonor at the hands of out of control criminal gangs.These monsters are shooting down our children in the streets of America and we let them exist. I would love to wake up 100 years from now and see exactly what kind of mess we will be in by then. The movie Soylent Green comes to mind. The only protection we have found over the years is to stay the hell out of cities.I am sorry you fell victim to these roving criminal preditors and I am equally sorry to hear there were gutless cowards near by instead of proud Americans willing to fight for those in trouble.Like gold through open fingers we have lost a valuble treasure in this country. I can be proud yet ashamed. Jerry Burney

[Navy]

I think Susan should carry a gun and know how to use it. It doesn't have to be a crew-served handgun, merely an "I'm gonna shoot your sorry ass" gun that will deter 99.99% of these trashy "diverse" scum. If her city/state bureaucrats do not permit carry, she should do so any way. Violate the law if your safety is at risk, but be prepared to pay the consequenses. Screw a bunch of tree-hugging liberals when one's life is at stake. Better to be tried by 12 than be carried by 6.

A 7.65 half-jacket hollow point in the face has a way of changing someone's opinion and reducing their degree of entusiasm and ardor,and it is an easy thing for a female,lovely lady person to shoot. Small hands, small grip, short sight alignment.

I would suggest a Sauer behorden (has a great safety) or a Walther PP/PPK (simply the best small autos ever). As for ammo, due to the litigeousness of our society, I suggest you buy the hottest FACTORY loads available and get them in something like the Glaser (Spelling?) safety slug. When you pop LeRoy, you want ALL the energy of the projectile delivered to LeRoy's face, not going through the worthless Leroy and hitting someone else down the street.

Use enough force in his face so he leaves or dies, but you can't be sued. Susan, be well and be well armed.

Tom A
Who has been sued (unsuccessfully)

[hermit]

Hello again and Happy New Year!!! Just got home from Ontario and last week a few gun owners decided to protest on Parliament hill. A 70 year old war vet and farmer was arrested for passing around a "piece" of a weapon--a receiver I believe. 6 others were also arrested. The registry is so backlogged that an acceptable way to appease the government is to write the registry a letter of "intent" to register them soon. What a farce!!! Any room in the States for me??

[Navy]

Hey hermit,

Leave the socialists and Quaida lovers up there and come on down. We welcome all freedom loving people who will help the USA advance the cause of liberty in an otherwise evil world.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[AGE]

Hermit,

If you are serious, I think you could find some help from forum members on moving to the states. I'm not sure, however, that would be a permanent solution to the government situation you face since we are finding more restrictions every year.

If you are serious, why not ask for member help and advice on moving?