Luger disaster

Rjennings · 08-25-2002, 08:21 PM

A disaster of major proportion has happened. I have a new collector grade 1940 Mauser, from Ralph Shattuck. A former friend, while I was away, thought to oil it for me. Whatever he used, destoyed it's value. Sent Thor pictures, but he doesn't do salt blue. The damage is to the bacj rught side of the frame, the blue is gone about the size of a dime. I haven't figured the way to post pictures, so if anyone has adivce I can E-Mail photos of the damage. Can anyone offer any advice, short of condolences for a reblue of the area of the frame? I know the collecters value is destroyed, but it is a perfect weapon otherwise and I want to restore. I understand I could destroy the proofs by reblueing and don't want that to happen.

Edward Tinker · 08-25-2002, 08:26 PM

If you follow the post picture threads in the New Member forum, I can see if the directions were worth a darn. Any feedback guys?

If you want, send them to me and I will post here for you.

Ed

Rjennings · 08-25-2002, 08:38 PM

May I E-Mail to you?

Edward Tinker · 08-25-2002, 08:56 PM

Here are some pictures of Roberts Luger with the damage.

I lightened them a bit and shrunk them down, hope they are okay:

Garfield · 08-25-2002, 09:43 PM

I wouldn't blame your former friend for the condition of your gun. It appears that there was corrosion/rust in that area of the receiver that was removed prior to your purchase and cold blue was applied over that spot. Applying oil to cold blue will some times remove it in the manner as your pistol now appears. If your pistol had original finish in that area, oil would not remove it. This is my opinion based on the pictures and the assumption that you did nothing to the pistol.

If that is the only area that is suffering, reblueing will not affect the markings.

John Sabato · 08-26-2002, 11:59 AM

Wow Garfield,

Twice in one day I agree with you! The corrosion looks typical of what I call blood pitting... but of course it could be just rust from poor storage...

Robert, Unless you have just spoken to Thor, I would recheck with him because although he specializes in rust blueing, I believe that he may now be doing salt blue as well, or might have it done for you after his excellent metal prep work...

Johnny Peppers · 08-26-2002, 12:37 PM

Rem-Oil does a good job of removing cold blue, and I am sure there are others that will do the same thing. If you suspect cold blue in other areas of the pistol, remove any oil and rub the area with your thumb until the metal is slightly warmed. The stink of copper sulfate will identify the cold blue.

Edward Tinker · 08-26-2002, 01:16 PM

So cold blue does not actually etch or rust the metal?

What does it do, esentially dye the metal ?

Heydrich · 08-26-2002, 02:20 PM

Let me get this right, there are some collectors out there who let other people clean their valuable firearms? That is antipathetic to me. <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />

Hugh · 08-26-2002, 08:37 PM

Heydrich,
I think if you will re-read his post, he didn't "let" someone clean and oil his Luger, the guy did it as a "favor" without being asked. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> Also note the he is now a "FORMER" friend. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

wterrell · 08-26-2002, 08:43 PM

Heydrich,

My head is reeling. "antipathetic" I haven't heard that word used correctly for decades. I congratulate you.

Heydrich · 08-26-2002, 10:13 PM

Thanks Wes! I once saw that word used in a history book published in the 40s. And Hugh, I re-read Rjenning’s first post up there, and his exact expression is “thought to oil it for me.” (I don’t see the word “favor” up there anywhere.) But you’re probably right that he didn’t want him to oil or otherwise clean it on his own initiative. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Hugh · 08-27-2002, 12:07 AM

Ed,

You are more or less correct, it puts a VERY thin acid rust coating on the surface of the metal, but doesn't penetrate like rust or dip bluing does.

Luke · 08-27-2002, 05:46 PM

If I have been following this thread correctly, it seems that a large spot on the Luger had been touched up with cold blue and some kind of oil removed the touch-up.

Johnny mentions that Rem-Oil will do this. Not sure what this is or where to get it. Will any of the standard cleaning and lubricating oils such as *Break Free CLR* remove cold blue?

Garfield · 08-27-2002, 06:32 PM

Luke:

Never tried them all and there are alot of variables, such as type of cold blue used, how much effort was taken to apply it and how long ago it was applied. But to try to answer your question, most lubs and particularly a lub that has bore cleaning properties will remove/ighten cold blue. Rem Oil is no more than a teflon based lubricant marked by Remington. Brownells seells it.

Jan C Still · 08-27-2002, 07:42 PM

Rjennings
I agree with Garfield. A fairly large blemish on this Luger was covered with cold blue. The application of the gun oil took off the cold blue and re-exposed the blemish. The blemish greatly detracts from the appearance of your Luger. I would suggest returning the Luger to the seller for a refund.

A restoration craftsman could restore the area of the blemish but it would probably be expensive.
The re-application of cold blue would give you what you obtained from the seller prior to the damage.

Starting decades ago, a seller boosted many of his Lugers to mint by applying cold blue to the usual wear spots (side plate, barrel band, and straps). Most collectors would spot this and would strip off the cold blue with WD 40 (or other similar solvent) and return these Lugers to original condition.

You can see how the number of mint Lugers today greatly exceeds the number decades ago.
Jan C. Still
Note: WD 40 and other similar solvents may not be conductive to the long term health of original Luger finish. Use it sparingly and clean it off.

Heinz · 08-27-2002, 09:58 PM

Cold blue in the sense of fast acting commercial instant blues, does NOT blue the steel. It plates a thin film of copper on the steel and turns the copper black/blue. It contains selenium as one of the ingredients. The selenium is what makes garlic smell so good and cold blue smell so bad. The third rate copper will often rub off with oil on a cloth.

Herb · 08-27-2002, 10:02 PM

Jan, I totally agree with you. I recently bought a near mint 1918 DWM from a dealer and had the same problem. Upon initial inspection there was no loss of blue but upon return to home and subsequent cleaning and inspection I found to my dismay that about 10% of the bluing had gone by the way. Live and learn, no report of condition was provided at the sale. I have for many years used nothing on the EXTERIOR of my rifles, shotguns and pistols but a good coat of Carnuaba auto paste wax and it does wonders for the finish. The whole idea is protection, this wax is made just for that, if it is good enough for Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches and the like, it is good enough for my Lugers. Try it, Mikey likes it! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Rjennings · 08-27-2002, 11:30 PM

I want to thank all of you on the forum for your advice, your disbelief in my stupidity about friends, your expertise. In buying my first luger, I learned something, be careful. Fortunately the damage is going to be repaired, better than before, by Ken Karsted, in Illinois. Since the collector status is gone, no matter how beautiful it will be, I am also having the grip damage, visible in the picture, repaired. This by the grip master Hugh Clark. Again Thank You to a great forum for the support. I am soon buying another Luger and hope this works out for the better. Robert Jennings, ABC News in L.A.

Garfield · 08-28-2002, 12:08 AM

Rjennings:

Let me see if I have this scenario correct. You recently purchased what was represented as a "collector's grade" Luger from Ralph Shattuck. I assume that you paid a "collector's grade" price for it. Shortly after receiving the pistol you determined that an area on the pistol had been "cold blued" to disguise an area that was blemished. (This business about your "friend" oiling it is not relevant".) Although several members of this forum have suggested that you return it to the vendor for a refund, you have decided to spend additional money for the purpose of refinishing your "prize", thereby, not only destroying any collector value that the pistol may have but reducing it's value to that of a shooter. Scenario correct?!?!? If the answer is yes, no explanation is required. Nor will I suggest that you might consider an alternate source for future luger purchases. Such advice, I fear, would fall on deaf ears.

Good Hunting,

P.S. "A disaster of major proportion" can yet be averted.

This is not a "negative" posting.

08-25-2002, 08:21 PM	#1
Rjennings User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger disaster A disaster of major proportion has happened. I have a new collector grade 1940 Mauser, from Ralph Shattuck. A former friend, while I was away, thought to oil it for me. Whatever he used, destoyed it's value. Sent Thor pictures, but he doesn't do salt blue. The damage is to the bacj rught side of the frame, the blue is gone about the size of a dime. I haven't figured the way to post pictures, so if anyone has adivce I can E-Mail photos of the damage. Can anyone offer any advice, short of condolences for a reblue of the area of the frame? I know the collecters value is destroyed, but it is a perfect weapon otherwise and I want to restore. I understand I could destroy the proofs by reblueing and don't want that to happen.

08-25-2002, 08:26 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	If you follow the post picture threads in the New Member forum, I can see if the directions were worth a darn. Any feedback guys? If you want, send them to me and I will post here for you. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-25-2002, 08:56 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Here are some pictures of Roberts Luger with the damage. I lightened them a bit and shrunk them down, hope they are okay: __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-26-2002, 11:59 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Wow Garfield, Twice in one day I agree with you! The corrosion looks typical of what I call blood pitting... but of course it could be just rust from poor storage... Robert, Unless you have just spoken to Thor, I would recheck with him because although he specializes in rust blueing, I believe that he may now be doing salt blue as well, or might have it done for you after his excellent metal prep work... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-26-2002, 01:16 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	So cold blue does not actually etch or rust the metal? What does it do, esentially dye the metal ? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-25-2002, 08:38 PM	#3
Rjennings User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	May I E-Mail to you?

08-25-2002, 09:43 PM	#5
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I wouldn't blame your former friend for the condition of your gun. It appears that there was corrosion/rust in that area of the receiver that was removed prior to your purchase and cold blue was applied over that spot. Applying oil to cold blue will some times remove it in the manner as your pistol now appears. If your pistol had original finish in that area, oil would not remove it. This is my opinion based on the pictures and the assumption that you did nothing to the pistol. If that is the only area that is suffering, reblueing will not affect the markings.

08-26-2002, 12:37 PM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Rem-Oil does a good job of removing cold blue, and I am sure there are others that will do the same thing. If you suspect cold blue in other areas of the pistol, remove any oil and rub the area with your thumb until the metal is slightly warmed. The stink of copper sulfate will identify the cold blue.

08-26-2002, 02:20 PM	#9
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Let me get this right, there are some collectors out there who let other people clean their valuable firearms? That is antipathetic to me. <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />

08-26-2002, 08:37 PM	#10
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Heydrich, I think if you will re-read his post, he didn't "let" someone clean and oil his Luger, the guy did it as a "favor" without being asked. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> Also note the he is now a "FORMER" friend. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

08-26-2002, 08:43 PM	#11
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Heydrich, My head is reeling. "antipathetic" I haven't heard that word used correctly for decades. I congratulate you. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

08-26-2002, 10:13 PM	#12
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Wes! I once saw that word used in a history book published in the 40s. And Hugh, I re-read Rjenning’s first post up there, and his exact expression is “thought to oil it for me.” (I don’t see the word “favor” up there anywhere.) But you’re probably right that he didn’t want him to oil or otherwise clean it on his own initiative. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

08-27-2002, 12:07 AM	#13
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Ed, You are more or less correct, it puts a VERY thin acid rust coating on the surface of the metal, but doesn't penetrate like rust or dip bluing does. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

08-27-2002, 05:46 PM	#14
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	If I have been following this thread correctly, it seems that a large spot on the Luger had been touched up with cold blue and some kind of oil removed the touch-up. Johnny mentions that Rem-Oil will do this. Not sure what this is or where to get it. Will any of the standard cleaning and lubricating oils such as Break Free CLR remove cold blue? __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-27-2002, 06:32 PM	#15
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luke: Never tried them all and there are alot of variables, such as type of cold blue used, how much effort was taken to apply it and how long ago it was applied. But to try to answer your question, most lubs and particularly a lub that has bore cleaning properties will remove/ighten cold blue. Rem Oil is no more than a teflon based lubricant marked by Remington. Brownells seells it.

08-27-2002, 07:42 PM	#16
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Rjennings I agree with Garfield. A fairly large blemish on this Luger was covered with cold blue. The application of the gun oil took off the cold blue and re-exposed the blemish. The blemish greatly detracts from the appearance of your Luger. I would suggest returning the Luger to the seller for a refund. A restoration craftsman could restore the area of the blemish but it would probably be expensive. The re-application of cold blue would give you what you obtained from the seller prior to the damage. Starting decades ago, a seller boosted many of his Lugers to mint by applying cold blue to the usual wear spots (side plate, barrel band, and straps). Most collectors would spot this and would strip off the cold blue with WD 40 (or other similar solvent) and return these Lugers to original condition. You can see how the number of mint Lugers today greatly exceeds the number decades ago. Jan C. Still Note: WD 40 and other similar solvents may not be conductive to the long term health of original Luger finish. Use it sparingly and clean it off.

08-27-2002, 09:58 PM	#17
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Cold blue in the sense of fast acting commercial instant blues, does NOT blue the steel. It plates a thin film of copper on the steel and turns the copper black/blue. It contains selenium as one of the ingredients. The selenium is what makes garlic smell so good and cold blue smell so bad. The third rate copper will often rub off with oil on a cloth.

08-27-2002, 10:02 PM	#18
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jan, I totally agree with you. I recently bought a near mint 1918 DWM from a dealer and had the same problem. Upon initial inspection there was no loss of blue but upon return to home and subsequent cleaning and inspection I found to my dismay that about 10% of the bluing had gone by the way. Live and learn, no report of condition was provided at the sale. I have for many years used nothing on the EXTERIOR of my rifles, shotguns and pistols but a good coat of Carnuaba auto paste wax and it does wonders for the finish. The whole idea is protection, this wax is made just for that, if it is good enough for Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches and the like, it is good enough for my Lugers. Try it, Mikey likes it! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-27-2002, 11:30 PM	#19
Rjennings User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I want to thank all of you on the forum for your advice, your disbelief in my stupidity about friends, your expertise. In buying my first luger, I learned something, be careful. Fortunately the damage is going to be repaired, better than before, by Ken Karsted, in Illinois. Since the collector status is gone, no matter how beautiful it will be, I am also having the grip damage, visible in the picture, repaired. This by the grip master Hugh Clark. Again Thank You to a great forum for the support. I am soon buying another Luger and hope this works out for the better. Robert Jennings, ABC News in L.A.

08-28-2002, 12:08 AM	#20
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Rjennings: Let me see if I have this scenario correct. You recently purchased what was represented as a "collector's grade" Luger from Ralph Shattuck. I assume that you paid a "collector's grade" price for it. Shortly after receiving the pistol you determined that an area on the pistol had been "cold blued" to disguise an area that was blemished. (This business about your "friend" oiling it is not relevant".) Although several members of this forum have suggested that you return it to the vendor for a refund, you have decided to spend additional money for the purpose of refinishing your "prize", thereby, not only destroying any collector value that the pistol may have but reducing it's value to that of a shooter. Scenario correct?!?!? If the answer is yes, no explanation is required. Nor will I suggest that you might consider an alternate source for future luger purchases. Such advice, I fear, would fall on deaf ears. Good Hunting, P.S. "A disaster of major proportion" can yet be averted. This is not a "negative" posting.