barrels from scratch

Rick W. · 07-02-2003, 11:10 PM

i

AGE · 07-02-2003, 11:49 PM

Rick,

Do you really think you need a premium barrel on a Luger? I have 2 Lugers, one of Thor's WWI restorations that I use sparingly and a '36 shooter. Both guns shoot great; the '36 will shoot a 1" 25 yard group even with tiny sights and a gritty trigger. How would a premium barrel improve this?

Seems to me that a good original barrel plus better sights and an improved trigger would be more profitable additions.

unspellable · 07-03-2003, 07:51 AM

The use of 30 caliber barrel stock is how we sometimes find a Luger with a 308 groove diameter as opposed to the original 311. This is fine with current factory ammo as Fiocchi runs 308 nominal and Winchester runs 309 both nominal and max. It would be a bit iffy for ammo that has a 310, 311 or 312 bullet.

The original DWM barrels seem to be pretty good. I can imagine that repro barrels could vary in quality and diminsions. Some of them are 308.

unspellable · 07-03-2003, 10:35 AM

There are occasions when I wish for a not quite standard barrel. I like the five inch length which is not common. I would like a five inch 30 caliber barrel withe same outside diminsions as the 9 mm barrel. At present I have three 30 Lugers with more or less five inch barrels. Two are pipe stem barrels on Swiss style Mauser re-intros. One is a 9 mm outside size on a 1942 Mauser. This latter barrel has no markings but runs the nominal 311 groove diameter so I suspect it might have been put on in Europe.

But if I find a good candidate for Thor with a rough bore I'd lkike to put a five inch barrel on it. Or maybe on an Aimco stainless with full toggle knobs. They offer a five inch pipe stem with the half knurled style knobs.

Given the availablity of 308 bullets a 308 barrel might not be so bad.

Of course this gets into the quandry of having different loads for different guns of the more or less same nominal chambering. For example hot 45 Colt loads versus having a revolver around chambered for the 1909 Colt 45. This will chamber a 45 Colt but is not suitable for hot loads. Super hot 44 Special loads that can only be used in Revolvers that are up to handling them. Then there is the 7.63 Mauser vs 7.62 Tokerav morass.

Guess I could really complicate things by coming up with an 8 mm wildcat for the Luger.

AGE · 07-04-2003, 12:27 AM

Rick,

I guess I understand your position on barrels. My dad was a machinist, but I am not. I also am not too happy with the Luger sights. However, given the extremely neat geometry of the gun (that I don't want to screw up) and the wild motion of the toggle, I have sort of given up on a refined adjustable rear sight. If you want an optical sight, why not design a grip mount like they make for the 1911 that replaces one of the grips. My eyes aren't perfect either at my age (68), but I am a stubborn old geezer who likes iron sights. I did get a good set of progressive shooting glasses from an expert in shooting glasses. They help my shooting a whole bunch.

My technique in shooting Lugers is probably worth mentioning. The Luger is generally sighted for about a 50 yard zero so it tends to shoot high at 50' or 25 yards. A taller front sight is needed to correct this if one uses a conventional sight picture. If the front sight is held under a bullseye target (6 o'clock hold) and about halfway up the rear sight notch, the elevation is about right at 25 yards on a standard 25 yard NRA target. My approach is to hold the front sight at the 6 o'clock position below the bull and the rear sight with the bull resting in the V notch. Works for me (pretty well).

unspellable · 07-04-2003, 08:46 AM

Age,

Any words of wisdom on the design of those shooting glasses? I'm mulling over several different notions what to get.

AGE · 07-04-2003, 10:45 AM

Unspellable,

I ordered mine from an optometrist named something like Lehman (I'm unsure of the spelling now) somewhere in Texas about 10 years ago. He was written up in one of the shooting magazines at that time (American Rifleman or Guns and Ammo). They worked well, but eventually I had to update my perscription (I did this locally). The new lenses work just as well (for me anyway) so I guess I would see what is available locally if I were you. Try for some sport glasses.

I normally wear bifocals but I hate them for shooting.

I would recommend that you take the upper half of your favorite gun in to your optometrist and make sure your prescription is good when holding it at arms length and focusing on the front sight.

I am nearsighted (I don't know if that makes a difference) and with my progressive lenses I can get the gun sights and target bullseye in good focus at the same time.

If you want to try to find Dr. Lehman, I'll sort through my old stuff to try to find more info.

Hugh · 07-04-2003, 12:48 PM

I got my progressive lens glasses at my local Wally-World optometrist. I explained to him that I was a pistol shooter, and wanted to focus on the sights. He had me hold a chart at arms length and adjusted the lens until it was in focus. This is the prescription they put in for the center part of the lenses.

Doubs · 07-04-2003, 06:02 PM

Rick, concerning your Enfield barrel, I have slugged many an Enfield bore and have yet to find one with a groove diameter smaller than .313" and some have gone as large as .318"!!! If yours does indeed measure .311", it should do fine for a Luger barrel as that is pretty standard for original Lugers in .30 caliber. Newer .30 Luger barrels, including some made in Europe, are running .308" as already pointed out. I have a Benelli B-80 and a Browning Hi-Power in .30 Luger and both are .308" and both are European made. My recent purchase of a P-38 in .30 Luger has the more traditional .310 - .311" groove diameter.

Thor · 07-05-2003, 04:39 PM

I got my progressive bifocals a few years back, they are superb for shooting but darn hard to get used to (as I remember) Really have improved my shooting. 20 Yd group with .308 Hornadys in a 1906 American Eagle.
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BStanTarget.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BStanTarget.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

AGE · 07-06-2003, 12:28 AM

Love those Lugers and progressive lenses.

Steve Richards · 07-07-2003, 02:22 AM

Unspellable,

The new stainless steel can be ordered in .30cal 4.75 inch barrell with full toggle nobs. I just got mine with the dished toggles to give a look similar to the 1900 model. It is also available without a grip safety.

Rudy Nilo · 07-11-2003, 12:45 PM

Hello,
This thread on barrels caught my eye. I've been thinking about doing something similar. Having a few donor rifle barrels to play with,I was going to see what could be done. As it turned out I took a chance on a barrel blank from Numrich. What I ordered was an unchambered 9mm Action Arms Uzi carbine blank,10 1/2 inch long at a cost of $18.50. The reason I mention this is the barrel looks like it would lend itself perfectly for a Luger barrel. At what would be the chamber end, the shank measures .704 diam. Approx 3" up is a .150 wide collar that is.918 diam. From the collar forward, the barrel is .680 diam. The last 3/4" at the muzzle end is stepped down to .625 diam. I don't know what the specs actually call for on an original Luger barrel but the spare I grabbed shows .705 diam over the threads. The collar/shoulder shows .865 diam. Chuck it up in a lathe,cut everything away that don't look like a Luger barrel and a barrel of close to 8.5 inches in length shows up. Threading,chambering,and the extractor notch would complete the project.
For those who have the equipment and the skill, and want to roll their own, these blanks might be good if not just for the practise. Compared to a straight rifled blank, a lot of the metal has already been removed. In case anyone would like to know, the item number for the blank is; 727440.
Rudy Nilo

John Sabato · 07-11-2003, 01:20 PM

Interesting comments Rudy... I have often thought that an UZI barrel might be a good prospect for a raw Luger barrel...If you have done this, how about posting some photographs of the work in progress and the finished item?

How do you handle the front sight band and dovetail for the front sight blade?

Thanks!

Rudy Nilo · 07-27-2003, 08:31 PM

Well, I haven't done much with the Uzi blank yet. I've been burning up a lot of round stock on my VERY old lathe trying to get the threads right. Not there yet,still practising....
As I'm not planning on winding up with an exact copy of a Luger barrel, all sorts of options are open for the front sites. Once I do get the chamber end completed, I'll see what's around for the other end. Till then, I guess I'll continue to shop around for the longer Luger barrels.
Rudy Nilo

Rudy Nilo · 07-28-2003, 03:47 AM

Hi Rick,
Thanks for the info. I hope to put some of your suggestions to the test within the next week or so. I did manage to get a "barrel" made up today. Using HSS, 60 degree cutter, 20 tpi. The fit was good,threads clean and strong. At least I know my old Davis lathe still has some life in it yet. I used a scrap pc of steel round stock and duplicated the dimensions from the Uzi blank I ultimately plan to use. Now,at least, I know the Uzi blank has enough meat to get a usable barrel for the Luger.
Right now tho, I'm holding a P.08 with a 9 1/4 inch long hunk of 7/8 diameter steel stuck on the front....just a wee bit muzzle heavy!!!
Thanks Again,
Rudy N.

John Sabato · 07-28-2003, 03:58 PM

Rudy... wait until you have a barrel with a hole all the way through before you try to chamber and fire any ammo please... we care about our members...

Rudy Nilo · 07-28-2003, 04:48 PM

Hi John,
Because of my interest in the Luger, I've found this site to be of much interest. It appears as tho everything is covered. The serious collectors,shooters,those that like to tinker,and those just into the Luger. There is,thanks to folks like you and others, a wealth of information and advice for all. I'll list a sense of humor as the "icing" on the cake! Thanks for the advice and chuckle!
With all that said, your comment is VERY valid. For appearance sake,a hole was put in both ends of the piece I made up, with the "chamber" end drilled to a depth of 3/8 inch. Once I finish turning this practise piece down, a short chamber does amount to cheap insurance.
Thanks,
Rudy N.

John Sabato · 07-28-2003, 04:50 PM

Glad I brought you a smile...

Edward Tinker · 07-28-2003, 08:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rudy Nilo:
The serious collectors,shooters,those that like to tinker,and those just into the Luger.
Thanks, Rudy N.<hr /></blockquote>What?

07-02-2003, 11:10 PM	#1
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	barrels from scratch i

07-02-2003, 11:49 PM	#2
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Rick, Do you really think you need a premium barrel on a Luger? I have 2 Lugers, one of Thor's WWI restorations that I use sparingly and a '36 shooter. Both guns shoot great; the '36 will shoot a 1" 25 yard group even with tiny sights and a gritty trigger. How would a premium barrel improve this? Seems to me that a good original barrel plus better sights and an improved trigger would be more profitable additions. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-04-2003, 12:27 AM	#5
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Rick, I guess I understand your position on barrels. My dad was a machinist, but I am not. I also am not too happy with the Luger sights. However, given the extremely neat geometry of the gun (that I don't want to screw up) and the wild motion of the toggle, I have sort of given up on a refined adjustable rear sight. If you want an optical sight, why not design a grip mount like they make for the 1911 that replaces one of the grips. My eyes aren't perfect either at my age (68), but I am a stubborn old geezer who likes iron sights. I did get a good set of progressive shooting glasses from an expert in shooting glasses. They help my shooting a whole bunch. My technique in shooting Lugers is probably worth mentioning. The Luger is generally sighted for about a 50 yard zero so it tends to shoot high at 50' or 25 yards. A taller front sight is needed to correct this if one uses a conventional sight picture. If the front sight is held under a bullseye target (6 o'clock hold) and about halfway up the rear sight notch, the elevation is about right at 25 yards on a standard 25 yard NRA target. My approach is to hold the front sight at the 6 o'clock position below the bull and the rear sight with the bull resting in the V notch. Works for me (pretty well). __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-04-2003, 10:45 AM	#7
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unspellable, I ordered mine from an optometrist named something like Lehman (I'm unsure of the spelling now) somewhere in Texas about 10 years ago. He was written up in one of the shooting magazines at that time (American Rifleman or Guns and Ammo). They worked well, but eventually I had to update my perscription (I did this locally). The new lenses work just as well (for me anyway) so I guess I would see what is available locally if I were you. Try for some sport glasses. I normally wear bifocals but I hate them for shooting. I would recommend that you take the upper half of your favorite gun in to your optometrist and make sure your prescription is good when holding it at arms length and focusing on the front sight. I am nearsighted (I don't know if that makes a difference) and with my progressive lenses I can get the gun sights and target bullseye in good focus at the same time. If you want to try to find Dr. Lehman, I'll sort through my old stuff to try to find more info. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-04-2003, 12:48 PM	#8
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	I got my progressive lens glasses at my local Wally-World optometrist. I explained to him that I was a pistol shooter, and wanted to focus on the sights. He had me hold a chart at arms length and adjusted the lens until it was in focus. This is the prescription they put in for the center part of the lenses. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-03-2003, 07:51 AM	#3
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The use of 30 caliber barrel stock is how we sometimes find a Luger with a 308 groove diameter as opposed to the original 311. This is fine with current factory ammo as Fiocchi runs 308 nominal and Winchester runs 309 both nominal and max. It would be a bit iffy for ammo that has a 310, 311 or 312 bullet. The original DWM barrels seem to be pretty good. I can imagine that repro barrels could vary in quality and diminsions. Some of them are 308.

07-03-2003, 10:35 AM	#4
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	There are occasions when I wish for a not quite standard barrel. I like the five inch length which is not common. I would like a five inch 30 caliber barrel withe same outside diminsions as the 9 mm barrel. At present I have three 30 Lugers with more or less five inch barrels. Two are pipe stem barrels on Swiss style Mauser re-intros. One is a 9 mm outside size on a 1942 Mauser. This latter barrel has no markings but runs the nominal 311 groove diameter so I suspect it might have been put on in Europe. But if I find a good candidate for Thor with a rough bore I'd lkike to put a five inch barrel on it. Or maybe on an Aimco stainless with full toggle knobs. They offer a five inch pipe stem with the half knurled style knobs. Given the availablity of 308 bullets a 308 barrel might not be so bad. Of course this gets into the quandry of having different loads for different guns of the more or less same nominal chambering. For example hot 45 Colt loads versus having a revolver around chambered for the 1909 Colt 45. This will chamber a 45 Colt but is not suitable for hot loads. Super hot 44 Special loads that can only be used in Revolvers that are up to handling them. Then there is the 7.63 Mauser vs 7.62 Tokerav morass. Guess I could really complicate things by coming up with an 8 mm wildcat for the Luger.

07-04-2003, 08:46 AM	#6
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Age, Any words of wisdom on the design of those shooting glasses? I'm mulling over several different notions what to get.

07-04-2003, 06:02 PM	#9
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	Rick, concerning your Enfield barrel, I have slugged many an Enfield bore and have yet to find one with a groove diameter smaller than .313" and some have gone as large as .318"!!! If yours does indeed measure .311", it should do fine for a Luger barrel as that is pretty standard for original Lugers in .30 caliber. Newer .30 Luger barrels, including some made in Europe, are running .308" as already pointed out. I have a Benelli B-80 and a Browning Hi-Power in .30 Luger and both are .308" and both are European made. My recent purchase of a P-38 in .30 Luger has the more traditional .310 - .311" groove diameter.

07-05-2003, 04:39 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I got my progressive bifocals a few years back, they are superb for shooting but darn hard to get used to (as I remember) Really have improved my shooting. 20 Yd group with .308 Hornadys in a 1906 American Eagle. <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BStanTarget.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/BStanTarget.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-06-2003, 12:28 AM	#11
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Love those Lugers and progressive lenses. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-07-2003, 02:22 AM	#12
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Unspellable, The new stainless steel can be ordered in .30cal 4.75 inch barrell with full toggle nobs. I just got mine with the dished toggles to give a look similar to the 1900 model. It is also available without a grip safety.

07-11-2003, 12:45 PM	#13
Rudy Nilo User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Racine,WI Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello, This thread on barrels caught my eye. I've been thinking about doing something similar. Having a few donor rifle barrels to play with,I was going to see what could be done. As it turned out I took a chance on a barrel blank from Numrich. What I ordered was an unchambered 9mm Action Arms Uzi carbine blank,10 1/2 inch long at a cost of $18.50. The reason I mention this is the barrel looks like it would lend itself perfectly for a Luger barrel. At what would be the chamber end, the shank measures .704 diam. Approx 3" up is a .150 wide collar that is.918 diam. From the collar forward, the barrel is .680 diam. The last 3/4" at the muzzle end is stepped down to .625 diam. I don't know what the specs actually call for on an original Luger barrel but the spare I grabbed shows .705 diam over the threads. The collar/shoulder shows .865 diam. Chuck it up in a lathe,cut everything away that don't look like a Luger barrel and a barrel of close to 8.5 inches in length shows up. Threading,chambering,and the extractor notch would complete the project. For those who have the equipment and the skill, and want to roll their own, these blanks might be good if not just for the practise. Compared to a straight rifled blank, a lot of the metal has already been removed. In case anyone would like to know, the item number for the blank is; 727440. Rudy Nilo

07-11-2003, 01:20 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Interesting comments Rudy... I have often thought that an UZI barrel might be a good prospect for a raw Luger barrel...If you have done this, how about posting some photographs of the work in progress and the finished item? How do you handle the front sight band and dovetail for the front sight blade? Thanks! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-27-2003, 08:31 PM	#15
Rudy Nilo User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Racine,WI Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, I haven't done much with the Uzi blank yet. I've been burning up a lot of round stock on my VERY old lathe trying to get the threads right. Not there yet,still practising.... As I'm not planning on winding up with an exact copy of a Luger barrel, all sorts of options are open for the front sites. Once I do get the chamber end completed, I'll see what's around for the other end. Till then, I guess I'll continue to shop around for the longer Luger barrels. Rudy Nilo

07-28-2003, 03:47 AM	#16
Rudy Nilo User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Racine,WI Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Rick, Thanks for the info. I hope to put some of your suggestions to the test within the next week or so. I did manage to get a "barrel" made up today. Using HSS, 60 degree cutter, 20 tpi. The fit was good,threads clean and strong. At least I know my old Davis lathe still has some life in it yet. I used a scrap pc of steel round stock and duplicated the dimensions from the Uzi blank I ultimately plan to use. Now,at least, I know the Uzi blank has enough meat to get a usable barrel for the Luger. Right now tho, I'm holding a P.08 with a 9 1/4 inch long hunk of 7/8 diameter steel stuck on the front....just a wee bit muzzle heavy!!! Thanks Again, Rudy N.

07-28-2003, 03:58 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Rudy... wait until you have a barrel with a hole all the way through before you try to chamber and fire any ammo please... we care about our members... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-28-2003, 04:48 PM	#18
Rudy Nilo User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Racine,WI Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi John, Because of my interest in the Luger, I've found this site to be of much interest. It appears as tho everything is covered. The serious collectors,shooters,those that like to tinker,and those just into the Luger. There is,thanks to folks like you and others, a wealth of information and advice for all. I'll list a sense of humor as the "icing" on the cake! Thanks for the advice and chuckle! With all that said, your comment is VERY valid. For appearance sake,a hole was put in both ends of the piece I made up, with the "chamber" end drilled to a depth of 3/8 inch. Once I finish turning this practise piece down, a short chamber does amount to cheap insurance. Thanks, Rudy N.

07-28-2003, 04:50 PM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Glad I brought you a smile... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-28-2003, 08:34 PM	#20
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Rudy Nilo: <strong>The serious collectors,shooters,those that like to tinker,and those just into the Luger. Thanks, Rudy N.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">What? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV