Erma .22 conv. kit ?

Ron Smith · 05-11-2004, 01:38 PM

I posted a question regarding value of the small kit RE: pg383 Lugers at Random . On the General Discussions forum. Need a value on one as new?

Thanks! Ron

Ron Smith · 05-13-2004, 05:27 PM

Picked it up today. All matching, Ser# 5818 Toggle has 2 stacked crowns in an oval.Or side by side E's. Right side of link is stamped with Staghorn? over an O ? or an S ? (tiny, and don't have my loop). 7 1/4" Barrel marked, 5.39mm and 5,4mm also Crown over B ? or R? and Crown over U. Mag aluminum base Ser# 5818. In beautiful wooden case. Is this an Erma?

Ron

tudorbug · 05-14-2004, 10:02 AM

A very nice looking kit and I eny you your ownership of it.

I wish I could find one.

Vlim · 05-14-2004, 10:12 AM

Hi Ron,

Crown/R and Crown/U can be 1950-1975 DDR (East German) repair and check marks.

This probably makes this a DDR rework of a pre-war Erma-set. John Walter mentions them in his 'Luger Story' and he states they are very rare.

The Staghorn may indicate a postwar West-German proof. There may be some date letters near the proof, but it's difficult to see on the image.

Ron Smith · 05-14-2004, 10:46 AM

Thank you both for the information. Appreciated greatly! I have added photos of the Crown proofs and the very tiny Antler(s)? proof.I don't see a date. Very crude and does not appear to be the standard Ulm proof. The crown over the B is larger with three points. A different style than the crown u which is rounded, and faceted.
G. I doubt that I would be lucky enough to have found an E. German re-work. However, I would be extatic if it were so.
Ron

Vlim · 05-14-2004, 11:04 AM

Ron,

The presence of a crown/R (instead of B) and a crown/U push it nicely towards Eastern-Germany.

Presence of a 3-digit proof date (month-year, like 150 for january 1950) would be nice.

Ron Smith · 05-14-2004, 11:17 AM

G, I cannot tell if it's a B or an R. as only the front edge of the letter is there. The top loop is nearly complete. The bottom is a slightly curved leg. The crown is complete. The crown proofs are followed by 5,4mm .These are stamped on the left flat of the chamber block. The bottom of the block is stamped (more heavily) 5,39 mm. Why would it have two different calibration stamps? The Crown B or R and the 5,4mm on either side of the crown U, are struck much more lightly. And in a different style.
Ron

John Sabato · 05-14-2004, 11:34 AM

Thanks for the great photos Ron.

and I am Just curious... does anyone have or know of blueprints for the .22 caliber conversion unit?

Vlim · 05-15-2004, 09:36 AM

John,

There is a patent-drawing of the Erma-design in John Walters 1977 'Luger'. No blueprints, however.

Lugerdoc · 05-15-2004, 03:02 PM

Ron, The EE in circle on the rear link, does indicate Erma - Erfurt production. TH

Ron Smith · 05-15-2004, 03:49 PM

Tom and everybody else, Thanks for the help and the info. Just discovered it's most probably a police proofed pre-war circa 1920-1933. The strange looking stamp is actually a weird police proof used on aluminum bottomed police mags. As per Costanzo's pg 79 #22. It's an incomplete stamping, showing just the bottom 2/3s or so. Matches perfectly to one shown on Still's Luger forum. See 1933-1945 Holsters and Magazines forum.

Thanks! Ron

Vlim · 05-16-2004, 12:48 PM

Hi, for completeness sake here is the answer I gave on Still's forum:

Ron,

Excellent find! This will get us a few steps further.

As stated before, the crown/U/B combination was in use before 1939.
The crown/U/R, together with Eastern-German stylized eagle from 1945 - early 50's.

So that were basically the two choices we had.
Since the eagle is now identified as a pre-WW2 Police acceptance stamp, the stamped parts of this set can easily be dated to the 1936-1939 German Police.

Early pre-war sets came in a slightly larger box, complete with cleaning tool. This box set without cleaning tool was available from 1936 onwards, so that provides us with the post-1936 time frame. The Crown/U/B marks were used until 1939, so that's the next limit.

Postwar Erma-sets have different boxing and different stamps, so this isn't a postwar commercial set. What I'm not sure about is the quality of the box and especially it's hinge. I've seen examples of boxes with a 12-screw layout, rather than the shown 8 screws. Perhaps the hinge was replaced one time or another. The size and layout of the box is correct.

Ron Smith · 05-16-2004, 02:30 PM

G. Thanks again! The photo of the kit, pg 383 Lugers at Random, military issue, has 8 screws.
Ron

John Sabato · 05-17-2004, 10:52 AM

Thanks Gerben, I have that book, but my memory didn't function so I could remember seeing that patent drawing there.

IF anyone does have blueprints for the .22 caliber conversion unit, please let me know.

05-11-2004, 01:38 PM	#1
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Erma .22 conv. kit ? I posted a question regarding value of the small kit RE: pg383 Lugers at Random . On the General Discussions forum. Need a value on one as new? Thanks! Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-14-2004, 10:46 AM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Thank you both for the information. Appreciated greatly! I have added photos of the Crown proofs and the very tiny Antler(s)? proof.I don't see a date. Very crude and does not appear to be the standard Ulm proof. The crown over the B is larger with three points. A different style than the crown u which is rounded, and faceted. G. I doubt that I would be lucky enough to have found an E. German re-work. However, I would be extatic if it were so. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-14-2004, 11:17 AM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	G, I cannot tell if it's a B or an R. as only the front edge of the letter is there. The top loop is nearly complete. The bottom is a slightly curved leg. The crown is complete. The crown proofs are followed by 5,4mm .These are stamped on the left flat of the chamber block. The bottom of the block is stamped (more heavily) 5,39 mm. Why would it have two different calibration stamps? The Crown B or R and the 5,4mm on either side of the crown U, are struck much more lightly. And in a different style. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-14-2004, 11:34 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Thanks for the great photos Ron. and I am Just curious... does anyone have or know of blueprints for the .22 caliber conversion unit? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-15-2004, 03:02 PM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Ron, The EE in circle on the rear link, does indicate Erma - Erfurt production. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-13-2004, 05:27 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Picked it up today. All matching, Ser# 5818 Toggle has 2 stacked crowns in an oval.Or side by side E's. Right side of link is stamped with Staghorn? over an O ? or an S ? (tiny, and don't have my loop). 7 1/4" Barrel marked, 5.39mm and 5,4mm also Crown over B ? or R? and Crown over U. Mag aluminum base Ser# 5818. In beautiful wooden case. Is this an Erma? Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-14-2004, 10:02 AM	#3
tudorbug Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 387 Thanks: 0 Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts	A very nice looking kit and I eny you your ownership of it. I wish I could find one.

05-14-2004, 10:12 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,955 Times in 1,200 Posts	Hi Ron, Crown/R and Crown/U can be 1950-1975 DDR (East German) repair and check marks. This probably makes this a DDR rework of a pre-war Erma-set. John Walter mentions them in his 'Luger Story' and he states they are very rare. The Staghorn may indicate a postwar West-German proof. There may be some date letters near the proof, but it's difficult to see on the image.

05-14-2004, 11:04 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,955 Times in 1,200 Posts	Ron, The presence of a crown/R (instead of B) and a crown/U push it nicely towards Eastern-Germany. Presence of a 3-digit proof date (month-year, like 150 for january 1950) would be nice.

05-15-2004, 09:36 AM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,955 Times in 1,200 Posts	John, There is a patent-drawing of the Erma-design in John Walters 1977 'Luger'. No blueprints, however.

05-15-2004, 03:49 PM	#11
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Tom and everybody else, Thanks for the help and the info. Just discovered it's most probably a police proofed pre-war circa 1920-1933. The strange looking stamp is actually a weird police proof used on aluminum bottomed police mags. As per Costanzo's pg 79 #22. It's an incomplete stamping, showing just the bottom 2/3s or so. Matches perfectly to one shown on Still's Luger forum. See 1933-1945 Holsters and Magazines forum. Thanks! Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-16-2004, 12:48 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,955 Times in 1,200 Posts	Hi, for completeness sake here is the answer I gave on Still's forum: Ron, Excellent find! This will get us a few steps further. As stated before, the crown/U/B combination was in use before 1939. The crown/U/R, together with Eastern-German stylized eagle from 1945 - early 50's. So that were basically the two choices we had. Since the eagle is now identified as a pre-WW2 Police acceptance stamp, the stamped parts of this set can easily be dated to the 1936-1939 German Police. Early pre-war sets came in a slightly larger box, complete with cleaning tool. This box set without cleaning tool was available from 1936 onwards, so that provides us with the post-1936 time frame. The Crown/U/B marks were used until 1939, so that's the next limit. Postwar Erma-sets have different boxing and different stamps, so this isn't a postwar commercial set. What I'm not sure about is the quality of the box and especially it's hinge. I've seen examples of boxes with a 12-screw layout, rather than the shown 8 screws. Perhaps the hinge was replaced one time or another. The size and layout of the box is correct.

05-16-2004, 02:30 PM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	G. Thanks again! The photo of the kit, pg 383 Lugers at Random, military issue, has 8 screws. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-17-2004, 10:52 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Thanks Gerben, I have that book, but my memory didn't function so I could remember seeing that patent drawing there. IF anyone does have blueprints for the .22 caliber conversion unit, please let me know. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*