1917 DWM Artilery

Lugerlvr · 03-24-2003, 04:15 PM

I bought my first Artilary last weekend. It's a 1917 DWM, with fine tune front and rear sights. Compared to my standard Lugers with 4 inch barels it seems like a monster rifle. It came with three functioning mags. One wood bottomed, and two alluminium. It also came with an original Imperial tool and rod. The rig, (holster, 2 mag pouch, board stock, straps are reproductions albiet VERY NICE, and aged to match the gun. Brown) Oh I forgot to mention the snail drum magazine(2nd. variation), with a repro drum leather case. Since I am totally lost when it comes to these I ask what may appear to be rudementary questions.

1) What would you guys estimate the value of the rig, repro items and all? Just ballpark. The gun and snail drum are in very good condition 85-90%, with some surface rust and minor pitting at the muzzel(I know to be expected)
2) Have you ever noticed the bluing looking kind of stained in spots, where there is moderate rust. As I said the muzzel is pitted a little and that is where the "splotch" is. It doesn't appear to be a touch up, but it could be, given that it seems a touch darker or stained.
3) Do they have a hold open? Mine doesn't seem to?

See I told you I was kind of dumb in this area. Don't worry guys, I traded some VERY nice things out of my collection for it! Any help as usual would be greatly appreciated! My personal e-mail is tcanney@abbe.org.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowlege!

Timothy Canney

Lonnie Zimmerman · 03-24-2003, 07:43 PM

Tim; it should have a hold open, numbered to the gun. Someone else will have to help you with the rest.
Lonnie

John D. · 03-24-2003, 08:56 PM

Hi Tim,

First - I agree with Lonnie - a 1917 should have a hold open..???

Second - I've been watching Arty's for a while, as I'd like to get one for my collection.. With both front/rear fine tunes in the condition you say, my guess about $1200 - $1500. Towards the higher end, they will have a proper mag (wood base, which your's have) and average wear. Towards the lower end, the bore is typically bad, and with heavier freckling/pitting present. Unmatched Arty's will be about $800 - $1000.

Your 2nd. variation snail mag. sounds terrific.! These are all over the map - from $1050, to a high I noted at $1565 on an auction site recently. My guess is about $1150 - $1300..???

Anyway - hope this helps!..!

Pete Ebbink · 03-24-2003, 10:08 PM

Hello Tim,

Congratulations on what sounds like a good buy !

You know, you owe us photos...no fair teasing us with text descriptions and no photos...!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Lugerlvr · 03-25-2003, 09:07 AM

I will post some when I get some taken. I don't have a digital camera....yet. The leather is just as nice as the originals as is the stock. Anyone have the same blotching or darkening of bluing in some areas as the wepon ages? Dont worry, I PAID for it. It's just something I didn't have, so I got one.

Thanks for your feedback guys,

Tim

Lugerdoc · 03-25-2003, 09:23 AM

Tim, Now you need a snail drum loading tool, so that you can get more than 20 rounds into it. I'll bring one to Tulsa. See you then. Tom

Lugerlvr · 03-25-2003, 12:05 PM

Not even sure I'm that crazy about it? Maby it's just different than anything I have had?

Lugerlvr · 03-26-2003, 09:14 AM

Actually now that I've had a chance to hold it more and admire it's engeneering.....I LOVE IT!
Can't afford to collect them though?

Thanks for the kind words guys! Trying to make it to Tulsa?....

Till next time,

Lugerlvr · 03-26-2003, 09:16 AM

The balance is extrodinary!!!!!!

One last thought. Sorry for the multiple posts!

Tim

Pete Ebbink · 03-26-2003, 10:22 AM

Tim,

I was lucky enough to pick up this 8" bbl shooter from Tom Heller at the last Tulsa show. You cannot believe the fun of shooting such a long barreled luger...

It also "cured" me from the temptation to shoot my Artillery...which cost much more...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 03-28-2003, 01:19 AM

I remember my first artillery Luger. Everybody yanked my chain by telling me it was no good because the artillery rear sight would go off to the side when opened to its full extent. This meant that it was bent and, therefore, no good. After all these yahoos had their laugh, they told me that this was originally built into the sight for windage correction.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 03-28-2003, 09:50 AM

This "windage" correction is actually to correct the bullet drift that resulted from the spin introduced by the rifling, combined with a number of other factors, like gun movement during recoil... I wish I was a smart enough engineer to be able to figure that kind of stuff out

ViggoG · 03-30-2003, 03:09 AM

Dear John, <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
I don't want to burst no bubbles "But", As far as I can determine the "Small Arms External Ballistics Co-efficients" were not sufficiently detailed to allow the calculation of the offsets, in the early 1900's, to make a predesigned sight, with ofsets of this type possible.
IMO, All of these type of corrections were worked out in the preproduction tests and were added as changes to correct an observed consistent anomaly in the true flight of the projectile.
it appears that this may be only one of a few weapons that had a feature such as this.
This would indicate a lack of general knowledge of this anomally of external ballistics as being industry wide, and possibility indicate a cut and try engineering approach.
Now, All you guys, I started a Turkey Shoot so, get in line for your shot, I'll Duck if I can.
<img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" /> ViggoG

John Sabato · 03-31-2003, 12:13 PM

Dear Viggo,

No bubble have popped here

, even if they arrived at the final dimensions by trial and error, I have examined enough artillery lugers to know that they all move to the same side when elevated... It has to be as a compensation for either gun or bullet movement during firing...

I haven't touched a K98 mauser or a broomhandle in years to know if they exhibit this same characteristic. I just know my artillery generally hits where it is aimed at longer distances if the rear sight slide is elevated...

What a job title that would be for a production worker/engineer... "Rear sight base shape and movement guesser"

Mark A · 04-01-2003, 12:28 AM

Probably sounds a lot cooler in german.

03-24-2003, 04:15 PM	#1
Lugerlvr Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1917 DWM Artilery I bought my first Artilary last weekend. It's a 1917 DWM, with fine tune front and rear sights. Compared to my standard Lugers with 4 inch barels it seems like a monster rifle. It came with three functioning mags. One wood bottomed, and two alluminium. It also came with an original Imperial tool and rod. The rig, (holster, 2 mag pouch, board stock, straps are reproductions albiet VERY NICE, and aged to match the gun. Brown) Oh I forgot to mention the snail drum magazine(2nd. variation), with a repro drum leather case. Since I am totally lost when it comes to these I ask what may appear to be rudementary questions. 1) What would you guys estimate the value of the rig, repro items and all? Just ballpark. The gun and snail drum are in very good condition 85-90%, with some surface rust and minor pitting at the muzzel(I know to be expected) 2) Have you ever noticed the bluing looking kind of stained in spots, where there is moderate rust. As I said the muzzel is pitted a little and that is where the "splotch" is. It doesn't appear to be a touch up, but it could be, given that it seems a touch darker or stained. 3) Do they have a hold open? Mine doesn't seem to? See I told you I was kind of dumb in this area. Don't worry guys, I traded some VERY nice things out of my collection for it! Any help as usual would be greatly appreciated! My personal e-mail is tcanney@abbe.org. Thanks in advance for sharing your knowlege! Timothy Canney

03-24-2003, 07:43 PM	#2
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tim; it should have a hold open, numbered to the gun. Someone else will have to help you with the rest. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

03-25-2003, 09:23 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Tim, Now you need a snail drum loading tool, so that you can get more than 20 rounds into it. I'll bring one to Tulsa. See you then. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-28-2003, 09:50 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	This "windage" correction is actually to correct the bullet drift that resulted from the spin introduced by the rifling, combined with a number of other factors, like gun movement during recoil... I wish I was a smart enough engineer to be able to figure that kind of stuff out __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-31-2003, 12:13 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Dear Viggo, No bubble have popped here , even if they arrived at the final dimensions by trial and error, I have examined enough artillery lugers to know that they all move to the same side when elevated... It has to be as a compensation for either gun or bullet movement during firing... I haven't touched a K98 mauser or a broomhandle in years to know if they exhibit this same characteristic. I just know my artillery generally hits where it is aimed at longer distances if the rear sight slide is elevated... What a job title that would be for a production worker/engineer... "Rear sight base shape and movement guesser" __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-24-2003, 08:56 PM	#3
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Hi Tim, First - I agree with Lonnie - a 1917 should have a hold open..??? Second - I've been watching Arty's for a while, as I'd like to get one for my collection.. With both front/rear fine tunes in the condition you say, my guess about $1200 - $1500. Towards the higher end, they will have a proper mag (wood base, which your's have) and average wear. Towards the lower end, the bore is typically bad, and with heavier freckling/pitting present. Unmatched Arty's will be about $800 - $1000. Your 2nd. variation snail mag. sounds terrific.! These are all over the map - from $1050, to a high I noted at $1565 on an auction site recently. My guess is about $1150 - $1300..??? Anyway - hope this helps!..!

03-24-2003, 10:08 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Tim, Congratulations on what sounds like a good buy ! You know, you owe us photos...no fair teasing us with text descriptions and no photos...!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-25-2003, 09:07 AM	#5
Lugerlvr Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will post some when I get some taken. I don't have a digital camera....yet. The leather is just as nice as the originals as is the stock. Anyone have the same blotching or darkening of bluing in some areas as the wepon ages? Dont worry, I PAID for it. It's just something I didn't have, so I got one. Thanks for your feedback guys, Tim

03-25-2003, 12:05 PM	#7
Lugerlvr Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not even sure I'm that crazy about it? Maby it's just different than anything I have had?

03-26-2003, 09:14 AM	#8
Lugerlvr Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Actually now that I've had a chance to hold it more and admire it's engeneering.....I LOVE IT! Can't afford to collect them though? Thanks for the kind words guys! Trying to make it to Tulsa?.... Till next time,

03-26-2003, 09:16 AM	#9
Lugerlvr Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The balance is extrodinary!!!!!! One last thought. Sorry for the multiple posts! Tim

03-26-2003, 10:22 AM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Tim, I was lucky enough to pick up this 8" bbl shooter from Tom Heller at the last Tulsa show. You cannot believe the fun of shooting such a long barreled luger... It also "cured" me from the temptation to shoot my Artillery...which cost much more... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-28-2003, 01:19 AM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I remember my first artillery Luger. Everybody yanked my chain by telling me it was no good because the artillery rear sight would go off to the side when opened to its full extent. This meant that it was bent and, therefore, no good. After all these yahoos had their laugh, they told me that this was originally built into the sight for windage correction. Big Norm

03-30-2003, 03:09 AM	#13
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Dear John, <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> I don't want to burst no bubbles "But", As far as I can determine the "Small Arms External Ballistics Co-efficients" were not sufficiently detailed to allow the calculation of the offsets, in the early 1900's, to make a predesigned sight, with ofsets of this type possible. IMO, All of these type of corrections were worked out in the preproduction tests and were added as changes to correct an observed consistent anomaly in the true flight of the projectile. it appears that this may be only one of a few weapons that had a feature such as this. This would indicate a lack of general knowledge of this anomally of external ballistics as being industry wide, and possibility indicate a cut and try engineering approach. Now, All you guys, I started a Turkey Shoot so, get in line for your shot, I'll Duck if I can. <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" /> ViggoG

04-01-2003, 12:28 AM	#15
Mark A User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Wheat Ridge, CO Posts: 105 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Probably sounds a lot cooler in german. __________________ Mark