Serial numbers.....

jaguar · 10-17-2003, 12:22 PM

Am I correct in assuming that a lot of the manufacturing records were lost as a result of WW II? I'm having a difficult time trying to locate any serial number information.

The 'Luger' I have is a 7.65mm DMW 4" barrel serial number 3005 proof marked 'Crown N' 05 stamped on various parts throughout the pistol and that's it for any markings on it. Cartrige size was determined by barrel measurment.

Can anyone supply information about this one? Year of manufacture, etc.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jaguar

Doubs · 10-17-2003, 02:17 PM

Jaguar, look at the front of the frame and see is a small case letter is stamped below the serial number. If so, it appears you may have an "Alphabet" commercial Luger made in the mid-1920's. Your barrel is also likely 98mm or approximately 3 7/8 inches long. With an empty chamber and the breech closed, insert a pencil down the barrel until it rests against the breechface. Mark the pencil at the muzzle and then measure it for an accurate barrel length.

jaguar · 10-17-2003, 05:29 PM

I did the pencil trick which yielded 95mm or 3 3/4 inches. The mark under the serial number appears to be "Script" R. Hard to tell exactly.

Jag

Thor · 10-17-2003, 05:58 PM

Does it look like any of these? Somes a "p" suffix looks a little like an "r".

Doubs · 10-17-2003, 09:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jaguar:
I did the pencil trick which yielded 95mm or 3 3/4 inches. The mark under the serial number appears to be "Script" R. Hard to tell exactly. Jag<hr /></blockquote>Some barrels have been reported as 95mm so that's not unusual. The script letter indicates a commercial "Alphabet" Luger and an "r" would place it in the latter part of the 1920's I believe.

Until roughly 1923, only military Lugers used a letter suffix in the serial number and commercial pistols did not. Following WW1, production of commercial Lugers by DWM began where they left off before the war or about 75,000. At approximately 92,000 DWM began using a suffix letter beginning with "i" which is the 9th letter of the alphabet. Each block of letters contained 10,000 Lugers (example: 1a - 10,000a) so "i" would have been 90,000. Commercial Lugers without suffix letters are known up to approximately 92,000.

Military pistols with suffix letter also have the last two numbers of the serial number stamped prominently on the sideplate, take-down lever, trigger bar and other parts..... all easily seen from the side. Commercial Lugers stamped the final two numbers UNDER the sideplate and take-down lever in the commercial manner and are not seen from the side. Military Lugers will also have a date (unless converted) on the chamber while a commercial will not. Post-WW1 military guns converted to commercial will vary in details and do not count.

Your "Alphabet" Luger will not have a date and will have the last two of the serial number on the underside of the sideplate and take-down lever. Also on the rear toggle link aft of the sight. The right side of the receiver will be clean unless stamped "GERMANY" and the left side will have only the C/N proof mark. The underside of the barrel should carry the serial number including the suffix letter I believe. The barrel may also have the C/N proof mark.

These are the most common of all Lugers but are well made and reliable shooters. They are also quite accurate. Enjoy yours.

jaguar · 10-18-2003, 12:35 AM

Oh, boy! Frame serial number 3005. Letter mark below it could be p or h as in row 2, middle h or it could be the letter p as in row 4. The barrel is stamped 3005, Crown N proof mark above the serial number and letter mark below serial number which looks like an h so I would think it's safe to say that it is an 'h' gun.
The rest of the marks are as been stated. No mark (Germany) on the right side. If that is the case, what would be the year of manufacture?

Jaguar

Doubs · 10-18-2003, 01:00 AM

jaguar, read my last post again. As the letter "h" comes before "i" and the Alphabet Lugers began with "i", it's not an "h"..... unless it's a reworked military gun. Where are the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the sideplate and take-down lever? On the side or under?

jaguar · 11-03-2003, 06:46 PM

Thanks to all of you who replied. I've been away for a while.
Additional information on my Luger hoping to give everyone enough information.
Manufacturer: DWM
Barrel: 3 3/4 inch. 7.65 mm
Thumb safety: Marked GESICHERT
Extractor: Marked GELADEN on left side
Grips: Checkered walnut
Magazine: Steel, wood base, unnumbered
Finish: Nickel plate, excellent
Serial No. 3005 Front of frame, bottom of barrel
Serial No. 2 digits, 05, breechblock, extractor, receiver, side plate, takedown lever, toggle, trigger.
Proof mark: Crown N, Receiver and barrel

It appears to be in very good condition. No wear. Bore excellent. Action tight. I know it has not been fired in the past 50 years.

Jaguar

Edward Tinker · 11-08-2003, 05:04 PM

Pictures posted for Jag.

Since it has been nickled at some point, this negates its "collector" value, but still a nice looking gun and a fine shooter

The Information you have is good, the DWM is the manufacturer, probably a post WW1 for the commercial market (although they didn't ship in nickle), the crown N on the left is a commercial proof marking.

The 05 is of course the last two of the serial number and was stamped on many parts, just as you mentioned.

BTW, the magazine looks like it is in real nice shape, as are the grips!

Ed

Hugh · 11-08-2003, 06:48 PM

beautiful gun! Thats the kind that gets Ed and my salivary glands working overtime! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 11-08-2003, 08:37 PM

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I had out my 4 inch Martz, because I had been talking about selling a few guns and my wife said, You AREN'T selling this one are you?

Otherwise, she really meant, Keep this puppy,

John Sabato · 11-10-2003, 10:49 AM

jaguar,

I agree with Hugh & Ed. While plated guns are not exactly my cup of tea, yours seems to have been treated with kid gloves during the transformation and the plating job reveals what a fine condition this gun was in when refinished.

You should shoot this puppy!...

Ed, I think it is about time you baptized your wife as a Luger afficionado... and took her to the range to shoot that shiney gun she likes so well!

jaguar · 11-10-2003, 12:15 PM

My thanks to all of you for your help and information. Now I can shoot this gun and not feel bad about it.

Jaguar

jaguar · 11-10-2003, 01:26 PM

As one final note.....is there any problem in switching out the barrel to a 9mm? It certainly is a lot cheaper to shoot!

Jaguar

John Sabato · 11-10-2003, 01:50 PM

You can certainly have the barrel swapped for a 9mm... and the only factor is the cost.

I recommend you contact Tom Heller (Lugerdoc) who may even have a barreled receiver available that you can assemble to your frame and then have the benefit of BOTH calibers...

He usually has a few ads in the FOR SALE forum and you can contact him there to determine your options.

Aaron · 11-10-2003, 05:02 PM

Why rebarrel when you can just rebore?

bleumoon · 12-02-2003, 02:34 AM

Just found this posting and it seems to answer a lot of questions I had about my first luger purchase. I posted photo and description in New Members Forum. My luger is quite similar, DMW, 7.65, 3 3/4' barrel, crown N proof mark on frame and toggle, 1977 serial number with a {k} beneath it, 77 on underside of other parts such as the sideplate and take down lever, not the face as on this gun. Extractor has no marks. And unfortunatly not nickel plate. Jaquar you have one beautiful luger.

jaguar · 12-03-2003, 01:23 PM

It looks like I've stired things up a bit. That's good! Keeps the brain from rotting.

My thanks to all of you with your comments. For the time being, I think I'll just sit tight and enjoy this shiny little pop gun.

The best the season has to offer to you all!

Jaguar

saxman · 12-04-2003, 01:46 PM

Okay, just to stir the pot...the gun can be de-nickeled by reversing the electro-plating process - that's how chrome shops do it when re-plating Harley parts, etc. Then, the gun could be carefully prepared and rust-blued. So, for about $150, you could have a new-looking Luger. I wouldn't suggest it ordinarily, but your pistol is in such beautiful shape with clear markings and sharp edges that it would be a very good candidate for this treatment.

10-17-2003, 12:22 PM	#1
jaguar User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Serial numbers..... Am I correct in assuming that a lot of the manufacturing records were lost as a result of WW II? I'm having a difficult time trying to locate any serial number information. The 'Luger' I have is a 7.65mm DMW 4" barrel serial number 3005 proof marked 'Crown N' 05 stamped on various parts throughout the pistol and that's it for any markings on it. Cartrige size was determined by barrel measurment. Can anyone supply information about this one? Year of manufacture, etc. Thanks in advance for any help. Jaguar

10-17-2003, 05:58 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Does it look like any of these? Somes a "p" suffix looks a little like an "r". __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

10-17-2003, 09:32 PM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by jaguar: <strong>I did the pencil trick which yielded 95mm or 3 3/4 inches. The mark under the serial number appears to be "Script" R. Hard to tell exactly. Jag</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Some barrels have been reported as 95mm so that's not unusual. The script letter indicates a commercial "Alphabet" Luger and an "r" would place it in the latter part of the 1920's I believe. Until roughly 1923, only military Lugers used a letter suffix in the serial number and commercial pistols did not. Following WW1, production of commercial Lugers by DWM began where they left off before the war or about 75,000. At approximately 92,000 DWM began using a suffix letter beginning with "i" which is the 9th letter of the alphabet. Each block of letters contained 10,000 Lugers (example: 1a - 10,000a) so "i" would have been 90,000. Commercial Lugers without suffix letters are known up to approximately 92,000. Military pistols with suffix letter also have the last two numbers of the serial number stamped prominently on the sideplate, take-down lever, trigger bar and other parts..... all easily seen from the side. Commercial Lugers stamped the final two numbers UNDER the sideplate and take-down lever in the commercial manner and are not seen from the side. Military Lugers will also have a date (unless converted) on the chamber while a commercial will not. Post-WW1 military guns converted to commercial will vary in details and do not count. Your "Alphabet" Luger will not have a date and will have the last two of the serial number on the underside of the sideplate and take-down lever. Also on the rear toggle link aft of the sight. The right side of the receiver will be clean unless stamped "GERMANY" and the left side will have only the C/N proof mark. The underside of the barrel should carry the serial number including the suffix letter I believe. The barrel may also have the C/N proof mark. These are the most common of all Lugers but are well made and reliable shooters. They are also quite accurate. Enjoy yours.

11-08-2003, 05:04 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Pictures posted for Jag. Since it has been nickled at some point, this negates its "collector" value, but still a nice looking gun and a fine shooter The Information you have is good, the DWM is the manufacturer, probably a post WW1 for the commercial market (although they didn't ship in nickle), the crown N on the left is a commercial proof marking. The 05 is of course the last two of the serial number and was stamped on many parts, just as you mentioned. BTW, the magazine looks like it is in real nice shape, as are the grips! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-08-2003, 06:48 PM	#10
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	beautiful gun! Thats the kind that gets Ed and my salivary glands working overtime! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

10-17-2003, 02:17 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	Jaguar, look at the front of the frame and see is a small case letter is stamped below the serial number. If so, it appears you may have an "Alphabet" commercial Luger made in the mid-1920's. Your barrel is also likely 98mm or approximately 3 7/8 inches long. With an empty chamber and the breech closed, insert a pencil down the barrel until it rests against the breechface. Mark the pencil at the muzzle and then measure it for an accurate barrel length.

10-17-2003, 05:29 PM	#3
jaguar User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I did the pencil trick which yielded 95mm or 3 3/4 inches. The mark under the serial number appears to be "Script" R. Hard to tell exactly. Jag

10-18-2003, 12:35 AM	#6
jaguar User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh, boy! Frame serial number 3005. Letter mark below it could be p or h as in row 2, middle h or it could be the letter p as in row 4. The barrel is stamped 3005, Crown N proof mark above the serial number and letter mark below serial number which looks like an h so I would think it's safe to say that it is an 'h' gun. The rest of the marks are as been stated. No mark (Germany) on the right side. If that is the case, what would be the year of manufacture? Jaguar

10-18-2003, 01:00 AM	#7
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	jaguar, read my last post again. As the letter "h" comes before "i" and the Alphabet Lugers began with "i", it's not an "h"..... unless it's a reworked military gun. Where are the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the sideplate and take-down lever? On the side or under?

11-03-2003, 06:46 PM	#8
jaguar User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to all of you who replied. I've been away for a while. Additional information on my Luger hoping to give everyone enough information. Manufacturer: DWM Barrel: 3 3/4 inch. 7.65 mm Thumb safety: Marked GESICHERT Extractor: Marked GELADEN on left side Grips: Checkered walnut Magazine: Steel, wood base, unnumbered Finish: Nickel plate, excellent Serial No. 3005 Front of frame, bottom of barrel Serial No. 2 digits, 05, breechblock, extractor, receiver, side plate, takedown lever, toggle, trigger. Proof mark: Crown N, Receiver and barrel It appears to be in very good condition. No wear. Bore excellent. Action tight. I know it has not been fired in the past 50 years. Jaguar

11-08-2003, 08:37 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I had out my 4 inch Martz, because I had been talking about selling a few guns and my wife said, You AREN'T selling this one are you? Otherwise, she really meant, Keep this puppy, __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-10-2003, 10:49 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	jaguar, I agree with Hugh & Ed. While plated guns are not exactly my cup of tea, yours seems to have been treated with kid gloves during the transformation and the plating job reveals what a fine condition this gun was in when refinished. You should shoot this puppy!... Ed, I think it is about time you baptized your wife as a Luger afficionado... and took her to the range to shoot that shiney gun she likes so well! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-10-2003, 12:15 PM	#13
jaguar User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My thanks to all of you for your help and information. Now I can shoot this gun and not feel bad about it. Jaguar

11-10-2003, 01:26 PM	#14
jaguar User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As one final note.....is there any problem in switching out the barrel to a 9mm? It certainly is a lot cheaper to shoot! Jaguar

11-10-2003, 01:50 PM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	You can certainly have the barrel swapped for a 9mm... and the only factor is the cost. I recommend you contact Tom Heller (Lugerdoc) who may even have a barreled receiver available that you can assemble to your frame and then have the benefit of BOTH calibers... He usually has a few ads in the FOR SALE forum and you can contact him there to determine your options. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-10-2003, 05:02 PM	#16
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Why rebarrel when you can just rebore?

12-02-2003, 02:34 AM	#17
bleumoon User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Springdale Arkansas Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just found this posting and it seems to answer a lot of questions I had about my first luger purchase. I posted photo and description in New Members Forum. My luger is quite similar, DMW, 7.65, 3 3/4' barrel, crown N proof mark on frame and toggle, 1977 serial number with a {k} beneath it, 77 on underside of other parts such as the sideplate and take down lever, not the face as on this gun. Extractor has no marks. And unfortunatly not nickel plate. Jaquar you have one beautiful luger.

12-03-2003, 01:23 PM	#18
jaguar User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It looks like I've stired things up a bit. That's good! Keeps the brain from rotting. My thanks to all of you with your comments. For the time being, I think I'll just sit tight and enjoy this shiny little pop gun. The best the season has to offer to you all! Jaguar

12-04-2003, 01:46 PM	#19
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okay, just to stir the pot...the gun can be de-nickeled by reversing the electro-plating process - that's how chrome shops do it when re-plating Harley parts, etc. Then, the gun could be carefully prepared and rust-blued. So, for about $150, you could have a new-looking Luger. I wouldn't suggest it ordinarily, but your pistol is in such beautiful shape with clear markings and sharp edges that it would be a very good candidate for this treatment. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.