1920 Commercial Erfurt

jamese · 07-03-2003, 08:13 AM

Just a quick question did the Erfurt Arsenal produce commercial lugers ?

Recently I saw a Erfurt with commercial markings, 4 digit ser number and unmarked chamber.

The gun is in good shape and I might buy it, but wasn't sure if the Goverment Arsenal produced commercial guns.

Thanks for any input

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

Lugerdoc · 07-03-2003, 08:21 AM

Jamese, Most experts agree that the govt arsenal at Erfurt only made 9mm lugers for the military. I have seen a few post WW1 reworks that still have all the military proofing, but the barrel have been changed to 7.65mm. TH

Dwight Gruber · 07-03-2003, 10:38 AM

Jamese,

To check to see that this is a real commercial-converted Erfurt, rather than a DWM with an Erfurt toggle, look for Imperial inspector stamps on all the parts.

Erfurt stamped these marks, appearing as a Germanic-looking letter under a crown, on all the gun's parts, including the gip screws and ejector. The effect is that the gun is peppered with them, it should be readily apparent to you. DWM did not use these marks.

If it is truly an Erfurt, and you do buy it, be sure to take copious photographs and post them here.

--Dwight

Doubs · 07-03-2003, 10:29 PM

I have a "commercial" Erfurt that was converted to 7.65mm after the war. The barrel was changed and the date was removed from the chamber. It was nicely done. The receiver is notched and it's either a 1916, 1917 or 1918 military Erfurt. The serial number, 9619i (the "i" is undotted) is much too high to be a 1914 Artillery. All parts except the mag and replacement barrel are matching and the pistol is a fine shooting gun. The barrel is unmarked except for the import markings.

FileaPhal · 07-06-2003, 06:34 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Erfurt stamped these marks, appearing as a Germanic-looking letter under a crown, on all the gun's parts, including the gip screws and ejector. The effect is that the gun is peppered with them, it should be readily apparent to you. DWM did not use these marks. <hr /></blockquote>
Ok, now I'm confused. I just bought a .30 luger 1906 model that has all matching numbers, including the toggle, which has DWM on it. It also has a crown-over-"N" mark on many parts. It's absolutely immaculate, except someone polished it up...Argh....

Ron Wood · 07-06-2003, 06:42 PM

Perhaps we can clear up your confusion. What puzzles you? Your Luger is a 1906 Commercial model. The Erfurt under discussion is a 1920's era Commercial.

FileaPhal · 07-06-2003, 06:54 PM

This is what puzzles me:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Erfurt stamped these marks.....DWM did not use these marks.
<hr /></blockquote>

It's DWM, it has the marks. So what I assume is that this only applies to 1920's era Lugers??

Ron Wood · 07-06-2003, 07:11 PM

Aha! The Erfurt marks are the "Germanic-looking letter under a crown" that Dwight mentioned as appearing on all the parts. The only mark that your 1906 would have in common with the 1920 is the Crown/N commercial proof.

FileaPhal · 07-06-2003, 07:15 PM

Thanks! I'm very new to Lugers, only had one for a little over a day now

Thanks for the information and your patience.

Edward Tinker · 07-06-2003, 07:15 PM

Garret, can you take digital or other pictures of your gun and the markings?

DWM did mark many of the parts, just not as many as Erfurt did.

Proofs? (see on your left under tech information if you came through www.lugerforum.com) Tell us what and where proofs and markings are located.

There are forms in this section, where you can print out and then write down pertinent information.

What serial number is on the gun? To include any letters next to or under the serial number?

What year or letters are stamped on the top of the receiver?

Can you provide pictures, to include side, top, etc?

Ed

Doubs · 07-06-2003, 07:29 PM

FileaPhal, Dwight was trying to explain that DWM only stamped a limited number of parts on each Luger produced for the military with military inspection proofs. e.g., the right-side receiver of a military pistol - both DWM and Erfurt - will normally have 3 crown-over-letter stamps plus the arsenal eagle which is different for DWM and Erfurt. (There ARE exceptions - the very earliest military Lugers - but we won't get into that here.) A true commercial pistol will not have these stamps.

Erfurt Lugers, OTOH, will have a crown-over-letter inspection stamp (like those in the picture) on just about every part of the gun; locking bolt (takedown lever), sideplate, grip screws, trigger, firing pin and so on. IF the 1920 "commercial" Erfurt is so marked on the various parts, then it began life as a military pistol. IF there is a date on the pistol - DWM as well as Erfurt - then it was a military gun. I have never heard of an Erfurt Luger manufactured by the arsenal as a commercial pistol and my money is on the Erfurt "commercial" having first been a military pistol that was converted at some later date.... an ordinary model P-08 in 9mm converted to .30 caliber.

The attached picture shows typical Erfurt military inspection stamps and eagle on the right receiver wall.

YOUR 1906, OTOH, IS a commercial pistol and was from day one. The serial numbers on the locking bolt and sideplate will be underneath and not visible from the side. That's standard commercial placement. There will not be military inspection stamps of any kind. I hope this helps to clear up the confusion.

Dwight Gruber · 07-06-2003, 11:44 PM

The picture Doubs posted illustrates the final inspection and proof marks.

Pictured below is a detail study of a 1914 Erfurt LP-08. I've pointed out the small inspector's stamps "peppered" over the pistol's surface, demonstrating inspection of each of the small parts including the ejector and grip screws (bottom two).

Instead of the Crown/U, the 1906 could have had a combination of Crown/B, Crown/U, Crown/G proofs, pictured here.

You have already seen the Crown/N to notice the difference; late Mauser commercial Lugers have a Crown/U proof.

--Dwight

FileaPhal · 07-08-2003, 11:57 PM

Wow! my brains going to overload on all the info! Tonight figured out I wasn't seeing the "Lugerforums.com" homepage. There is a LOT of good stuff there I need to study, that would undoubtedly clear up a lot of these markings to me.

I will take some pictures and post them here. I can see a new addiction developing...

Thanks everyone for the excellent and detialed explanations and photos. This seems to be a really good forum.

John Sabato · 07-09-2003, 11:31 AM

Many times new members are directed to the "discussion pages" as their first introduction to the Lugerforum...

The proper entry point for the forum is through the homepage and the link for the homepage is conveniently at the bottom of each discussion page.

Many old timers do not access the forum through the homepage simply because they desire to have the most available room on their screen for discussion and photo images...

The left frame of the homepage is the entry point for several Lugerforum features that no new member should miss...

FileaPhal · 07-12-2003, 12:37 AM

Yep, that's what happened! I suppose that's a good reason to have the actual URL displayed in the Explorer address bar, that way it would be clear what page we were viewing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

jamese · 07-20-2003, 07:39 AM

I looked at the gun again.
It has the Erfurt proof stamps on all the visible parts including the grip screws, 4 digit matching ser # , No chamber date, Police sear safety

What is really strange is on the crown/N commercial stamp, the Ã¢??NÃ¢?Â covers part of the first digit of the ser#

They guy wants $825, what do you guys think

Thanks,
Jim

Dwight Gruber · 07-20-2003, 08:51 AM

Jim,

So what you are looking at is an Erfurt which was "commercialized" after the war (chamber date ground away; Crown/N stamp over the serial number in the proper place for a commercial proof) and then converted to police use (addition of a sear safety).

That being the case, some additional questions come to mind.

What is the overall finish of the gun like? Does there appear to be much wear? How strong is the straw on the strawed parts? Are the interior surfaces of the pistol blued or white?

We presume at this point (police gun) that it is 9mm. What marks appear on the barrel--bottom, left, right? Is there a witness mark on the barrel as well ason the frame?

Does the gun have any unit marks stamped on the grip strap?

Do the grips match the gun? Look inside, they should have Erfurt inspector stamps and the gun's serial#.

Could you describe the magazine--nickled, blued, extruded steel? Any marks on it? What is the magazine base made of, wood? aluminum? plastic? and what marks are on it, if any?

There's no good answer for your price question yet, but the answers to these questions will help a lot in determining it. There seems to be some regionality in "street prices" for Lugers, do you know what Lugers in Florida are selling for, in general, in the condition of the one you are looking at? I'm not talking about online or auction sales, but rather, gun show, dealer, or private party sales. There are some other members of this Forum who are Floridians, they may be able to weigh in with some information.

To my mind, this Luger is sounding more and more interesting all the time...

--Dwight

07-03-2003, 08:13 AM	#1
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	1920 Commercial Erfurt Just a quick question did the Erfurt Arsenal produce commercial lugers ? Recently I saw a Erfurt with commercial markings, 4 digit ser number and unmarked chamber. The gun is in good shape and I might buy it, but wasn't sure if the Goverment Arsenal produced commercial guns. Thanks for any input <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

07-03-2003, 08:21 AM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Jamese, Most experts agree that the govt arsenal at Erfurt only made 9mm lugers for the military. I have seen a few post WW1 reworks that still have all the military proofing, but the barrel have been changed to 7.65mm. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-06-2003, 06:34 PM	#5
FileaPhal User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: East Tennerssee Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Erfurt stamped these marks, appearing as a Germanic-looking letter under a crown, on all the gun's parts, including the gip screws and ejector. The effect is that the gun is peppered with them, it should be readily apparent to you. DWM did not use these marks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Ok, now I'm confused. I just bought a .30 luger 1906 model that has all matching numbers, including the toggle, which has DWM on it. It also has a crown-over-"N" mark on many parts. It's absolutely immaculate, except someone polished it up...Argh....

07-06-2003, 06:42 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Perhaps we can clear up your confusion. What puzzles you? Your Luger is a 1906 Commercial model. The Erfurt under discussion is a 1920's era Commercial. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-06-2003, 06:54 PM	#7
FileaPhal User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: East Tennerssee Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is what puzzles me: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Erfurt stamped these marks.....DWM did not use these marks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> It's DWM, it has the marks. So what I assume is that this only applies to 1920's era Lugers??

07-03-2003, 10:38 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Jamese, To check to see that this is a real commercial-converted Erfurt, rather than a DWM with an Erfurt toggle, look for Imperial inspector stamps on all the parts. Erfurt stamped these marks, appearing as a Germanic-looking letter under a crown, on all the gun's parts, including the gip screws and ejector. The effect is that the gun is peppered with them, it should be readily apparent to you. DWM did not use these marks. If it is truly an Erfurt, and you do buy it, be sure to take copious photographs and post them here. --Dwight

07-03-2003, 10:29 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	I have a "commercial" Erfurt that was converted to 7.65mm after the war. The barrel was changed and the date was removed from the chamber. It was nicely done. The receiver is notched and it's either a 1916, 1917 or 1918 military Erfurt. The serial number, 9619i (the "i" is undotted) is much too high to be a 1914 Artillery. All parts except the mag and replacement barrel are matching and the pistol is a fine shooting gun. The barrel is unmarked except for the import markings.

07-06-2003, 07:11 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Aha! The Erfurt marks are the "Germanic-looking letter under a crown" that Dwight mentioned as appearing on all the parts. The only mark that your 1906 would have in common with the 1920 is the Crown/N commercial proof. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-06-2003, 07:15 PM	#9
FileaPhal User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: East Tennerssee Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks! I'm very new to Lugers, only had one for a little over a day now Thanks for the information and your patience.

07-06-2003, 07:15 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Garret, can you take digital or other pictures of your gun and the markings? DWM did mark many of the parts, just not as many as Erfurt did. Proofs? (see on your left under tech information if you came through www.lugerforum.com) Tell us what and where proofs and markings are located. There are forms in this section, where you can print out and then write down pertinent information. What serial number is on the gun? To include any letters next to or under the serial number? What year or letters are stamped on the top of the receiver? Can you provide pictures, to include side, top, etc? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-06-2003, 07:29 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	FileaPhal, Dwight was trying to explain that DWM only stamped a limited number of parts on each Luger produced for the military with military inspection proofs. e.g., the right-side receiver of a military pistol - both DWM and Erfurt - will normally have 3 crown-over-letter stamps plus the arsenal eagle which is different for DWM and Erfurt. (There ARE exceptions - the very earliest military Lugers - but we won't get into that here.) A true commercial pistol will not have these stamps. Erfurt Lugers, OTOH, will have a crown-over-letter inspection stamp (like those in the picture) on just about every part of the gun; locking bolt (takedown lever), sideplate, grip screws, trigger, firing pin and so on. IF the 1920 "commercial" Erfurt is so marked on the various parts, then it began life as a military pistol. IF there is a date on the pistol - DWM as well as Erfurt - then it was a military gun. I have never heard of an Erfurt Luger manufactured by the arsenal as a commercial pistol and my money is on the Erfurt "commercial" having first been a military pistol that was converted at some later date.... an ordinary model P-08 in 9mm converted to .30 caliber. The attached picture shows typical Erfurt military inspection stamps and eagle on the right receiver wall. YOUR 1906, OTOH, IS a commercial pistol and was from day one. The serial numbers on the locking bolt and sideplate will be underneath and not visible from the side. That's standard commercial placement. There will not be military inspection stamps of any kind. I hope this helps to clear up the confusion.

07-06-2003, 11:44 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	The picture Doubs posted illustrates the final inspection and proof marks. Pictured below is a detail study of a 1914 Erfurt LP-08. I've pointed out the small inspector's stamps "peppered" over the pistol's surface, demonstrating inspection of each of the small parts including the ejector and grip screws (bottom two). Instead of the Crown/U, the 1906 could have had a combination of Crown/B, Crown/U, Crown/G proofs, pictured here. You have already seen the Crown/N to notice the difference; late Mauser commercial Lugers have a Crown/U proof. --Dwight

07-08-2003, 11:57 PM	#13
FileaPhal User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: East Tennerssee Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow! my brains going to overload on all the info! Tonight figured out I wasn't seeing the "Lugerforums.com" homepage. There is a LOT of good stuff there I need to study, that would undoubtedly clear up a lot of these markings to me. I will take some pictures and post them here. I can see a new addiction developing... Thanks everyone for the excellent and detialed explanations and photos. This seems to be a really good forum.

07-09-2003, 11:31 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Many times new members are directed to the "discussion pages" as their first introduction to the Lugerforum... The proper entry point for the forum is through the homepage and the link for the homepage is conveniently at the bottom of each discussion page. Many old timers do not access the forum through the homepage simply because they desire to have the most available room on their screen for discussion and photo images... The left frame of the homepage is the entry point for several Lugerforum features that no new member should miss... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-12-2003, 12:37 AM	#15
FileaPhal User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: East Tennerssee Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yep, that's what happened! I suppose that's a good reason to have the actual URL displayed in the Explorer address bar, that way it would be clear what page we were viewing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

07-20-2003, 07:39 AM	#16
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	I looked at the gun again. It has the Erfurt proof stamps on all the visible parts including the grip screws, 4 digit matching ser # , No chamber date, Police sear safety What is really strange is on the crown/N commercial stamp, the Ã¢??NÃ¢?Â covers part of the first digit of the ser# They guy wants $825, what do you guys think Thanks, Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

07-20-2003, 08:51 AM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Jim, So what you are looking at is an Erfurt which was "commercialized" after the war (chamber date ground away; Crown/N stamp over the serial number in the proper place for a commercial proof) and then converted to police use (addition of a sear safety). That being the case, some additional questions come to mind. What is the overall finish of the gun like? Does there appear to be much wear? How strong is the straw on the strawed parts? Are the interior surfaces of the pistol blued or white? We presume at this point (police gun) that it is 9mm. What marks appear on the barrel--bottom, left, right? Is there a witness mark on the barrel as well ason the frame? Does the gun have any unit marks stamped on the grip strap? Do the grips match the gun? Look inside, they should have Erfurt inspector stamps and the gun's serial#. Could you describe the magazine--nickled, blued, extruded steel? Any marks on it? What is the magazine base made of, wood? aluminum? plastic? and what marks are on it, if any? There's no good answer for your price question yet, but the answers to these questions will help a lot in determining it. There seems to be some regionality in "street prices" for Lugers, do you know what Lugers in Florida are selling for, in general, in the condition of the one you are looking at? I'm not talking about online or auction sales, but rather, gun show, dealer, or private party sales. There are some other members of this Forum who are Floridians, they may be able to weigh in with some information. To my mind, this Luger is sounding more and more interesting all the time... --Dwight