1920 DWM

saxman · 12-23-2002, 12:10 AM

My 1920 DWM 9mm is #40xxh. The bbl. number matches, but has a lower case L instead of an H. The gun is in original rust blue in good condition, and the barrel finish and wear match the rest of the pistol. All markings appear to be original, but this can't be correct. I can see someone with the correct die set matching an unnumbered barrel to the gun, but why would they put on the wrong suffix? I guess they could have found a 9mm bbl. with the matching number and wrong suffix, but it seems improbable. The barrel has the other usual markings - proof and bore measurement. Any thoughts on this?

Dwight Gruber · 12-23-2002, 02:25 AM

I have a 1918 Artillery in exactly the same circumstances you report. My frame is 886b, barrel is 886l (in suffix-script these letters are not distinguished in a casual glance). Proper markings are exhibited on the barrel...

I was going to continue on with this, but then I re-read your message, and have some other questions.

Is your Luger chamber-dated 1920? If so, is it really a chamber date, or is it a Reichwehr-marked chamber (the 1920 does not represent a date, and the stamping can appear different from the familiar date stamps)? Is yours a Police weapon, does it have a sear safety? Are the locking lever and trigger plate serial numbered on the face or the edge? Does it have a Crown/N Commercial proof, or does it have military proofs?

If your gun is a Weimar rework, any number of things--some explicable, some not--could have been done to your Luger.

More details about your gun will be interesting.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 12-23-2002, 02:54 AM

Good posting Dwight, makes me wonder about this also?

Ed

saxman · 12-23-2002, 10:46 AM

Here is a pic of the chamber date and the barrel proof. The sideplate and locking lever are numbered on the lower edge. No extra safeties.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/lugerdate2.jpg

Dwight Gruber · 12-23-2002, 01:56 PM

I think your Luger has more to tell. The unevenness of spacing between the numerals on the chamber stamp leads me to suspect that it is a property stamp. Date stamps in general, and the 1920 date stamps shown in Still and Kenyon in particular, are pretty severely regular.

In addition, according to Still (Weimar Lugers, pp 12-18) Commercial Lugers manufactured 1919-1921 were serial-numbered in the commercial manner, ranging from mid-78800 to 92000 without suffix. In the middle of 1921 DWM converted to military-style serialization (now called by Still "Alphabet Commecial"), beginning with block i.

Are there any proofs present on the receiver? Is the serial number present there? What about proof marks on the breechblock? How does the witness mark under the barrel appear?

--Dwight

Doubs · 12-23-2002, 03:20 PM

FWIW, I agree - for exactly the same reasons - that the "1920" on the chamber is a property marking. I'd like to see the serial number suffix letters on both the barrel and the frame. IMO, an incomplete "h" in German script MAY be mistaken for a lower case script "L". It would depend upon how the die was struck.

saxman · 12-23-2002, 03:47 PM

Obviously, an incomplete 'h' could look like an 'l', but this is not the case on mine. Witness mark on the bbl. is perfectly aligned. The serial number without the suffix is on the left side of the receiver. The three proofs on the right side of the receiver appear to be No. 31 from the Technical Section. The barrel proof looks very similar to these, if not the same. I took the upper off but didn't see anything, but I'm really not too sure what you mean by 'breechblock'.

saxman · 12-23-2002, 04:31 PM

Okay, I know what the breechblock is, but I haven't progressed to that stage of disassembly. I probably won't get a chance to take apart the upper assembly until after Christmas, but I'll post any proofs I find there. I guess this Luger is starting to look like a 'reworked 1920 police or military', according to the #31 proofs. Reworked by who? Simpson? DWM? Does that mean the 1920 is a date?

Dwight Gruber · 12-23-2002, 11:06 PM

You shouldn't need to disassemble your Luger to see a breechblock proof, if one is there. It will be stamped on the part which humps up above the receiver, I've enhanced it in the photo below.

The 1920 is almost certainly a property stamp, not a date--judging by the manner in which it is stamped, and the serial number not being characteristic of 1920 production.

There is no sure way to know who did the rework , or when. Considering that it is 9mm and has no Police safeties, it was probably reworked for army use.

Your original question runs along lines that I myself have some questions about, which is why I followed up--I hoped for information which will help me frame my own questions.

--Dwight

saxman · 01-02-2003, 08:36 PM

The mark on the breechblock, LH side looks like #37, the "Waffen Amt" proof.

12-23-2002, 12:10 AM	#1
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1920 DWM My 1920 DWM 9mm is #40xxh. The bbl. number matches, but has a lower case L instead of an H. The gun is in original rust blue in good condition, and the barrel finish and wear match the rest of the pistol. All markings appear to be original, but this can't be correct. I can see someone with the correct die set matching an unnumbered barrel to the gun, but why would they put on the wrong suffix? I guess they could have found a 9mm bbl. with the matching number and wrong suffix, but it seems improbable. The barrel has the other usual markings - proof and bore measurement. Any thoughts on this? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-23-2002, 03:47 PM	#7
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Obviously, an incomplete 'h' could look like an 'l', but this is not the case on mine. Witness mark on the bbl. is perfectly aligned. The serial number without the suffix is on the left side of the receiver. The three proofs on the right side of the receiver appear to be No. 31 from the Technical Section. The barrel proof looks very similar to these, if not the same. I took the upper off but didn't see anything, but I'm really not too sure what you mean by 'breechblock'. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-23-2002, 04:31 PM	#8
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okay, I know what the breechblock is, but I haven't progressed to that stage of disassembly. I probably won't get a chance to take apart the upper assembly until after Christmas, but I'll post any proofs I find there. I guess this Luger is starting to look like a 'reworked 1920 police or military', according to the #31 proofs. Reworked by who? Simpson? DWM? Does that mean the 1920 is a date? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

01-02-2003, 08:36 PM	#10
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The mark on the breechblock, LH side looks like #37, the "Waffen Amt" proof. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-23-2002, 02:25 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	I have a 1918 Artillery in exactly the same circumstances you report. My frame is 886b, barrel is 886l (in suffix-script these letters are not distinguished in a casual glance). Proper markings are exhibited on the barrel... I was going to continue on with this, but then I re-read your message, and have some other questions. Is your Luger chamber-dated 1920? If so, is it really a chamber date, or is it a Reichwehr-marked chamber (the 1920 does not represent a date, and the stamping can appear different from the familiar date stamps)? Is yours a Police weapon, does it have a sear safety? Are the locking lever and trigger plate serial numbered on the face or the edge? Does it have a Crown/N Commercial proof, or does it have military proofs? If your gun is a Weimar rework, any number of things--some explicable, some not--could have been done to your Luger. More details about your gun will be interesting. --Dwight

12-23-2002, 02:54 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Good posting Dwight, makes me wonder about this also? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-23-2002, 10:46 AM	#4
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is a pic of the chamber date and the barrel proof. The sideplate and locking lever are numbered on the lower edge. No extra safeties. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/lugerdate2.jpg __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-23-2002, 01:56 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	I think your Luger has more to tell. The unevenness of spacing between the numerals on the chamber stamp leads me to suspect that it is a property stamp. Date stamps in general, and the 1920 date stamps shown in Still and Kenyon in particular, are pretty severely regular. In addition, according to Still (Weimar Lugers, pp 12-18) Commercial Lugers manufactured 1919-1921 were serial-numbered in the commercial manner, ranging from mid-78800 to 92000 without suffix. In the middle of 1921 DWM converted to military-style serialization (now called by Still "Alphabet Commecial"), beginning with block i. Are there any proofs present on the receiver? Is the serial number present there? What about proof marks on the breechblock? How does the witness mark under the barrel appear? --Dwight

12-23-2002, 03:20 PM	#6
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	FWIW, I agree - for exactly the same reasons - that the "1920" on the chamber is a property marking. I'd like to see the serial number suffix letters on both the barrel and the frame. IMO, an incomplete "h" in German script MAY be mistaken for a lower case script "L". It would depend upon how the die was struck.

12-23-2002, 11:06 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	You shouldn't need to disassemble your Luger to see a breechblock proof, if one is there. It will be stamped on the part which humps up above the receiver, I've enhanced it in the photo below. The 1920 is almost certainly a property stamp, not a date--judging by the manner in which it is stamped, and the serial number not being characteristic of 1920 production. There is no sure way to know who did the rework , or when. Considering that it is 9mm and has no Police safeties, it was probably reworked for army use. Your original question runs along lines that I myself have some questions about, which is why I followed up--I hoped for information which will help me frame my own questions. --Dwight