A stange Police Luger

nahpatronen · 04-30-2003, 10:11 AM

I have been presented with a strange Police Luger. It has neither a production year on the receiver nor a code on the toggle.

The pistol is numbermatching and the toggle link has some stange small marks:

On the right side of the receiver: "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" so it must have been in hands of the British.

See above the serrated line.
Viele GrÃ?Â¼Ã??e
Nahpatronen

policeluger · 04-30-2003, 10:39 AM

From what I can see, and more detail would be nice, it looks like a the gun was made up from parts, not all original. I can't read the grip strap unit marking, what is the first letter?, the frame is in better condition then the trigger plate, blank toggle and chamber could be "sneak", but not with a WW1 unit marking. Could the extractor marking be nothing more than a "ding" in the metal, outside of the last two numbers of the serial number, I have never seen any other proof marked on the extractor.

nahpatronen · 04-30-2003, 02:22 PM

The code is: L. Lg. 136. Exactly the same "ding" appears two other places on the toggle.
Note also the WaA66 on the right side of the receiver.
I guess it has been produced in the beginning of the thirties.
Nahpatronen

Ron Wood · 04-30-2003, 03:00 PM

The "ding" is a British proof mark. The circle around the letter indicates that it is a foreign made firearm. British made firearms do not have the circle.

In the photo it looks like it also has a vertical Crown/N proof on the left side of the receiver, and possibly some additional proofs on the right side of the barrel just forward of the receiver.

The grip marking is for the LandjÃ?Â¤gerei (rural constabulary) LÃ?Â¼neburg weapon number 136.

To me, it looks like a Weimar era police Luger fabricated from parts, that possibly has seen WWII military use (Wa66 might indicate an arsenal repair, but that era is not well known to me), and eventually was taken to the UK where it received the mandatory proofs and "Not English Make" markings.

nahpatronen · 04-30-2003, 03:10 PM

It has a vertical crown/N proof on the left side of the receiver and a horizontal crown/N proof on the left side of the toggle.

Nahpatronen

Navy · 05-01-2003, 07:20 AM

A theory on the Brit proofs...Sam Cummings stored many millions of guns in the UK when he was running Interarms. British law requires, IIRC, that all cartridge firearms be proofed and if not of English origin, they must undergo proofing in the UK. I would surmise that this is likely a former Interarms piece that was assembled from parts on hand.

A theory ONLY.
Tom A.

nahpatronen · 05-01-2003, 09:20 AM

More on proofs: See the photo:

I think #2 from the front is: crown/scriptic G (Jan Still)
Below the barrel: serial number 2372 and a crown very much like the N crown on the left side of the receiver.
Nahpatronen

Lugerdoc · 05-01-2003, 10:14 AM

NP, I've seen a few of these Crown suffixed lugers in the past. Usually the crown suffix on the front of the frame is stamped over a letter (s,t,u previously observed). This would date the production to around 1929 by BKIW when they were producing many "Blank" toggle lugers from left over WW1 parts, but DWM claimed no liabilty on these. Tom

Ron Wood · 05-01-2003, 10:16 AM

With the exception of the Crown/N and WaA66 proofs, all the rest are British proofs. I believe Tom is correct that this is originally a 1929 BKIW.

nahpatronen · 05-02-2003, 02:45 AM

This link here:
http://claus.espeholt.dk/mediearkiv/WAAE.pdf
gives an explanation of Waffenamt 66.
Mit freundlichem GruÃ??
Nahpatronen

Jim Keenan · 05-09-2003, 12:24 AM

That is the British commercial proof. There can be as many explanations as the imagination allows, but all it really means is that at some time that gun was registered in the UK or sold on the commercial market in the UK. It could have been a war souvenir or a gun sold to a Brit on the surplus market when they were allowed to own handguns. It may have been imported into the UK for reworking and exportation. In any case, any gun imported into the UK or sold on the commercial market in the UK must be proofed.

The only exceptions would be guns for the armed forces or guns held in bond.

Jim

nahpatronen · 05-09-2003, 03:27 AM

Thank you very much. It sounds reasonable.
nahpatronen

04-30-2003, 10:11 AM	#1
nahpatronen User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A stange Police Luger I have been presented with a strange Police Luger. It has neither a production year on the receiver nor a code on the toggle. The pistol is numbermatching and the toggle link has some stange small marks: On the right side of the receiver: "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" so it must have been in hands of the British. See above the serrated line. Viele GrÃ?Â¼Ã??e Nahpatronen

04-30-2003, 03:00 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	The "ding" is a British proof mark. The circle around the letter indicates that it is a foreign made firearm. British made firearms do not have the circle. In the photo it looks like it also has a vertical Crown/N proof on the left side of the receiver, and possibly some additional proofs on the right side of the barrel just forward of the receiver. The grip marking is for the LandjÃ?Â¤gerei (rural constabulary) LÃ?Â¼neburg weapon number 136. To me, it looks like a Weimar era police Luger fabricated from parts, that possibly has seen WWII military use (Wa66 might indicate an arsenal repair, but that era is not well known to me), and eventually was taken to the UK where it received the mandatory proofs and "Not English Make" markings. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-01-2003, 10:14 AM	#8
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	NP, I've seen a few of these Crown suffixed lugers in the past. Usually the crown suffix on the front of the frame is stamped over a letter (s,t,u previously observed). This would date the production to around 1929 by BKIW when they were producing many "Blank" toggle lugers from left over WW1 parts, but DWM claimed no liabilty on these. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-01-2003, 10:16 AM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	With the exception of the Crown/N and WaA66 proofs, all the rest are British proofs. I believe Tom is correct that this is originally a 1929 BKIW. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-30-2003, 10:39 AM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	From what I can see, and more detail would be nice, it looks like a the gun was made up from parts, not all original. I can't read the grip strap unit marking, what is the first letter?, the frame is in better condition then the trigger plate, blank toggle and chamber could be "sneak", but not with a WW1 unit marking. Could the extractor marking be nothing more than a "ding" in the metal, outside of the last two numbers of the serial number, I have never seen any other proof marked on the extractor.

04-30-2003, 02:22 PM	#3
nahpatronen User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The code is: L. Lg. 136. Exactly the same "ding" appears two other places on the toggle. Note also the WaA66 on the right side of the receiver. I guess it has been produced in the beginning of the thirties. Nahpatronen

04-30-2003, 03:10 PM	#5
nahpatronen User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It has a vertical crown/N proof on the left side of the receiver and a horizontal crown/N proof on the left side of the toggle. Nahpatronen

05-01-2003, 07:20 AM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	A theory on the Brit proofs...Sam Cummings stored many millions of guns in the UK when he was running Interarms. British law requires, IIRC, that all cartridge firearms be proofed and if not of English origin, they must undergo proofing in the UK. I would surmise that this is likely a former Interarms piece that was assembled from parts on hand. A theory ONLY. Tom A.

05-01-2003, 09:20 AM	#7
nahpatronen User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	More on proofs: See the photo: I think #2 from the front is: crown/scriptic G (Jan Still) Below the barrel: serial number 2372 and a crown very much like the N crown on the left side of the receiver. Nahpatronen

05-02-2003, 02:45 AM	#10
nahpatronen User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	This link here: http://claus.espeholt.dk/mediearkiv/WAAE.pdf gives an explanation of Waffenamt 66. Mit freundlichem GruÃ?? Nahpatronen

05-09-2003, 12:24 AM	#11
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	That is the British commercial proof. There can be as many explanations as the imagination allows, but all it really means is that at some time that gun was registered in the UK or sold on the commercial market in the UK. It could have been a war souvenir or a gun sold to a Brit on the surplus market when they were allowed to own handguns. It may have been imported into the UK for reworking and exportation. In any case, any gun imported into the UK or sold on the commercial market in the UK must be proofed. The only exceptions would be guns for the armed forces or guns held in bond. Jim

05-09-2003, 03:27 AM	#12
nahpatronen User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thank you very much. It sounds reasonable. nahpatronen