Death Head - Page 2

Edward Tinker · 08-09-2002, 12:34 AM

So, I see what I said was taken a bit out of context.

I tried to say and possibly said it poorly; (this is in a general sense and not directed at you Orv) Meaning I WAS NOT speaking to or about Orv, I hold him in high regard.

Lets go out and find some Lugers today, [img]smile.gif[/img]

Garfield · 08-09-2002, 01:06 AM

Ed:

Sorry to hear about your learning disorder. There is a technical name for it that slips my mind at the moment, however, I think that there is medication available that may help. Would suggest that you discuss this disability with you physician (sp?).

Edward Tinker · 08-09-2002, 01:17 AM

I was going to call my physician, pysiction, uhhh, doctor to help me get medication for remembering things, but I keep forgetting to call him.

Orv Reichert · 08-09-2002, 01:52 PM

I have the same problem...comes with age [73] and I call it "HALF-HEIMER'S" as I forget about half of what goes on!...but I can remember a gun/car I looked at in 1960?

Orv Reichert

aaa · 08-10-2002, 02:42 AM

Gentlemen,
Sorry I didn't reply to Garfield, but I will do so now concerning where I purchased the Death's Head. It was bought at a gun show in Kansas from a German militaria dealer. he was not a gun dealer. it was from his private collection. He informed me after I discussed the legitimacy of the gun that he obtained it from a WWII vet. Unknowing of its rareness he foolishly decided to have the gun plated. The previous owner claimed that the vet eventually realized that he had made a mistake. The vet then had the gun refinished. The man that i bought the gun from claimed that this was definately not a fake and was a WWII bring back. I'm currently trying to find out where i can get pictures taken and post them on the forum. I will do this as quickly as i can. Question--Since discovering the forum, I have read about issues of gun values. It is my interpretation that once a gun has been refinished it is worthless to a collector, and only good as a shooter. Is this always the case? Is my gun only a shooter now? If i found a .45 cal luger that had been nickle plated would it be only worth $500 vs. 1 million? Just trying to figure out what my gun is worth if it is legit. what does the forum think?

wterrell · 08-10-2002, 11:20 AM

[quote]...he was not a gun dealer. it was from his private collection... <hr></blockquote>

(I have met that salesman several times in my travels.)

aaa, you have a shooter. Let's say that the vet wanted a snub-nose, and had two inches of the barrel cut off. Then realized his mistake and had two more inches of steel welded on and machined. It was ruined whenever the original two inches was cut off. Same with the pistol that has the original finish removed. You can replace finish, but it is not the original finish.

A .45 cal Luger that has been altered would be worth substantially less than a .45 cal Luger that has an honest patina, parts, etc. I do not know that its value would fall as far as a 9mm or 7.65mm but that is trying to say that a junk Rolls-Royce is only worth what a junk Ford is worth. An ex-movie actress will fetch more in a whore house than a housewife. Agree?

George Anderson · 08-10-2002, 11:31 AM

At the Tulsa show last October I saw three "deathsheads" at different tables within two hundred feet of each other. All in the 1917-1918 dates each priced at $1800. This was 75% of the deathsheads I had seen in 35 years of luger collecting. Since last October I've seen at least five more.

Gives one cause to wonder....

Edward Tinker · 08-10-2002, 11:42 AM

I think a "rarer" Luger in bad or refinished shape is worth more than an average "shooter" Luger, but the price is much, much less than one in original shape.

tau-delt · 08-10-2002, 12:27 PM

I am new to this board but since I'm an old guy and have been collecting for over 25 years I guess I might as well get into the fray. I would suggest that is very easy to ask questions or criticize but the really tough part of the game is coming up with the answers. The Jans and Orvs and others have earned the right to my respect and appreciation for all the help and knowledge they have provided over the years and continue to provide today. When I was younger, I might have ended this with a comment something like "don't waste their time and mime with cheap shots". But since I am older now and more restrained I won't say that. dave

Orv Reichert · 08-10-2002, 02:50 PM

There is a reason you are suddently seeing 'Death Head' lugers.

I posted this some months back to the P38 forum.. I think it is appropriate [now] to post it here.

I received this info from a foreign collector who got it from an importer and forwarded it to me. I have removed some names to protect the guilty and this site [from the lawyers]
==========
The guns your friend refers to are brought in to the USA by XXX, from their British company "XXXXXXX" (The owner is an old friend of mine.)

The guns actually come from the former Yugoslavia, and are arsenal refinished there. They also sell them through XXXXXXX in Germany to other parts of the world.

Your friend should be a little cautious
as those boys can make anything "rare." I saw their efforts when they produced several hundred SS "death camp" Mausers.

The stamps they use to make the stuff [look] authentic are made in Birmingham, England. The place that makes them does a great trade in C broad arrow and British broad arrow stamps
=========

So, now you know!

Orv Reichert

MarkC · 08-10-2002, 03:17 PM

The only two death head Lugers I have ever seen were obvious and crude fakes. One had been touched up over the stamping with a "blueing" pen. I had great luck several years back in acquiring a genuine GEW 98 death head rifle. This gun is 100% correct as an early variation. The photo's of the two death heads on the rifle follow. I have used them as a guide when looking for fakes since I would think that any Death Head Luger would have a similar marking. The key to my spotting the fakes was the mouth of the death heads which should show a full set of teeth. Also, notice the "dimples" on the ends of the crossed bones.

Ron Wood · 08-11-2002, 01:43 AM

Mark
The markings on your GEW 98 are great looking but not necessarily a good example to use for evaluating Lugers as there is a fair amount of difference, even discounting the SS runes. I have seen what some authorities consider genuine Death Head Lugers both with and without "a full set of teeth". As early as 1958 Fred Datig published in the revised edition of "The Luger Pistol" what is probably the first public illustration of a Death Head Luger and it doesn't have a tooth in its head. Could it be an early fake? Possibly, but that is a little early on to have that happening already. I have a Death Head that I purchased in 1970 for the price of a common Luger that has no teeth. It is not surprising that there may be more than one type of stamp that was used to produce these Lugers over a period of years. The fact that there is the possibility of a variance in marking is shown by your GEW 98 since there is clearly a difference between the two Death Heads on the same rifle.
The flip side of this, however, is that this variance is exactly what makes it a fruitful target for forgers and requires increased vigilance on the part of the buyer. Just look at the high occurrance of Death Head Lugers that George Anderson stated in his post. Quite frankly, I would be very hesitant to buy a Death Head Luger today.

Heydrich · 08-11-2002, 09:27 AM

I’ve lost track of all the faked Model 98 rifles I have seen in the past five years that have been stamped (or even crudely carved) to present them as authentic SS weapons. Over in the K98k forum, the long running pun is that “Bubba made it” in his basement. The most common forgeries are based on reworked G98 and bnz (Steyr-Daimler-Puch) coded K98 rifles. Both these types are historically recorded as being issued to Waffen-SS and concentration camp guard personnel. The SS managed to swindle a large number of reworked G98 rifles, as well as Steyr model slave labor produced K98s. This was to circumvent the OKH authorities. Anyway, these days anyone who has a “standard” bnz coded K98 (especially the years 1942/43) is liable to succumb to the huge temptation to mark it with a death head and SS rune somehow. This will increase its value by five to six times or more. And Mark, I disagree with you that the markings on German rifles can’t be used as a “good example to use for evaluating Lugers”. The authentic death head markings seem to have a clean uniformity of appearance between German pistols and rifles. In particular, the skull is well defined, and for authentic SS marked ones, the lighting bolts are super sharp and straight. Fake death head markings also share the same bogus inconsistencies between pistols and rifles. Lugers do not exist in some kind of special vacuum Mark. Many K98 and G43 collectors, like Robert Jensen and Darrin Weaver, have got to be some of the better evaluators of German collectable firearms. And as far as MarkC’s G98 is concerned, I have never seen a real SS rifle in publications (or otherwise) that was stamped with two death heads like that. But the super straight and clean lighting bolts makes me believe it’s probably authentic. The left side death head also resembles the one in Robert Ball’s book. But it still makes me wonder. If it is a fake, it’s the best one I’ve ever seen.

MarkC · 08-11-2002, 02:32 PM

Heydrich,

Richard Law's publication "Backbone of the Wehtmacht: Kahr 98K Rifle 1934-45" is a great reference and has a chapter devoted to the death head rifles.

There is a photo of the exact dual death head stamping which appears in the book and on my rifle.

I appreciate all of the input on my comment regarding what a real death head on a Luger must look like. (I have never seen one so perhaps a forum member can post a picture for us all to look at?) The only real death heads I have seen appear on my rifle and I jumped to a conclusion. Although it is very apparent that this marking is far rarer on Lugers than K98 rifles........

Mark

Heydrich · 08-11-2002, 06:51 PM

Mark, I'm familiar with Law's book. But did not have a copy handy at the time. You're right, there is one listed like your rifle in Law's publication. My bad. The lightning bolts on your rifle are too clean anyway.

MarkC · 08-11-2002, 07:26 PM

Just thought you guys might like to see the death head from the binocular case that came with my rifle. Notice the full set of teeth and dimples on the crossed bones.

The binoculars are in OK condition with the name of the soldier in the top of the case.

As an aside note, the second death heath on my rifle also has a full set of teeth and dimples on the crossed bones. I will post better photo's if you have any questions.

Herb · 08-11-2002, 08:06 PM

MarkC, I totally agree with you, especially about the teeth on the skull. The German craftsmen were, and still are, proud of their work. Here is a photo of the deaths head on my SS officers hat, note the teeth and other details that set it off from fakes with lesser detail.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 08-12-2002, 01:29 AM

Herb; your SS skull is indeed authentic, but I can"t understand why some think a stamping on a gun should be the same as an SS medal. A stamp could never have the detail of a medal. Do you agree?
Lonnie

Heydrich · 08-12-2002, 04:04 AM

I think Herb just wanted to show off his cool SS artifact.

aaa · 08-21-2002, 08:33 AM

I would like to think all of you for your input on this matter. The previous owner of the gun that I purcased, agreed to take it back; he was very fair about the issue. I was unable to get any photos of the gun before I returned it. Im very sorry, I did not have enough time.

This was done for several reason:

1. The gun had a bad refinish job (part of it had been repolished and it just didn't look consistant with other period erfurts I have seen)

2. It appered to have some of the markings polished off.

3. I could not get an agreement to some of the individuals I showed the gun to.( they to questioned its lit.)

4. The lessons that the fourm taught me

I paid 1000 bucks for the gun, but agree this fine gun (if real) was screwed up when the original owner thought it would be neet to have it plated, thus leaving it in the shooter grade. I did recently see a deaths head at the tulsa gun show for sale at 2500 bucks and its markings looked the same as mine. This still offers no proof.

Do all of you agree?

Think I will stick to the good stuff in the future!!!!

08-09-2002, 12:34 AM	#21
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	So, I see what I said was taken a bit out of context. I tried to say and possibly said it poorly; (this is in a general sense and not directed at you Orv) Meaning I WAS NOT speaking to or about Orv, I hold him in high regard. Lets go out and find some Lugers today, [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-09-2002, 01:17 AM	#23
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I was going to call my physician, pysiction, uhhh, doctor to help me get medication for remembering things, but I keep forgetting to call him. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-09-2002, 01:52 PM	#24
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have the same problem...comes with age [73] and I call it "HALF-HEIMER'S" as I forget about half of what goes on!...but I can remember a gun/car I looked at in 1960? Orv Reichert __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

08-10-2002, 11:20 AM	#26
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[quote]...he was not a gun dealer. it was from his private collection... <hr></blockquote> (I have met that salesman several times in my travels.) aaa, you have a shooter. Let's say that the vet wanted a snub-nose, and had two inches of the barrel cut off. Then realized his mistake and had two more inches of steel welded on and machined. It was ruined whenever the original two inches was cut off. Same with the pistol that has the original finish removed. You can replace finish, but it is not the original finish. A .45 cal Luger that has been altered would be worth substantially less than a .45 cal Luger that has an honest patina, parts, etc. I do not know that its value would fall as far as a 9mm or 7.65mm but that is trying to say that a junk Rolls-Royce is only worth what a junk Ford is worth. An ex-movie actress will fetch more in a whore house than a housewife. Agree? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

08-10-2002, 11:42 AM	#28
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I think a "rarer" Luger in bad or refinished shape is worth more than an average "shooter" Luger, but the price is much, much less than one in original shape. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-09-2002, 01:06 AM	#22
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed: Sorry to hear about your learning disorder. There is a technical name for it that slips my mind at the moment, however, I think that there is medication available that may help. Would suggest that you discuss this disability with you physician (sp?).

08-10-2002, 02:42 AM	#25
aaa User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gentlemen, Sorry I didn't reply to Garfield, but I will do so now concerning where I purchased the Death's Head. It was bought at a gun show in Kansas from a German militaria dealer. he was not a gun dealer. it was from his private collection. He informed me after I discussed the legitimacy of the gun that he obtained it from a WWII vet. Unknowing of its rareness he foolishly decided to have the gun plated. The previous owner claimed that the vet eventually realized that he had made a mistake. The vet then had the gun refinished. The man that i bought the gun from claimed that this was definately not a fake and was a WWII bring back. I'm currently trying to find out where i can get pictures taken and post them on the forum. I will do this as quickly as i can. Question--Since discovering the forum, I have read about issues of gun values. It is my interpretation that once a gun has been refinished it is worthless to a collector, and only good as a shooter. Is this always the case? Is my gun only a shooter now? If i found a .45 cal luger that had been nickle plated would it be only worth $500 vs. 1 million? Just trying to figure out what my gun is worth if it is legit. what does the forum think?

08-10-2002, 11:31 AM	#27
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	At the Tulsa show last October I saw three "deathsheads" at different tables within two hundred feet of each other. All in the 1917-1918 dates each priced at $1800. This was 75% of the deathsheads I had seen in 35 years of luger collecting. Since last October I've seen at least five more. Gives one cause to wonder....

08-10-2002, 12:27 PM	#29
tau-delt User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 106 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts	I am new to this board but since I'm an old guy and have been collecting for over 25 years I guess I might as well get into the fray. I would suggest that is very easy to ask questions or criticize but the really tough part of the game is coming up with the answers. The Jans and Orvs and others have earned the right to my respect and appreciation for all the help and knowledge they have provided over the years and continue to provide today. When I was younger, I might have ended this with a comment something like "don't waste their time and mime with cheap shots". But since I am older now and more restrained I won't say that. dave __________________ dave

08-10-2002, 02:50 PM	#30
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	There is a reason you are suddently seeing 'Death Head' lugers. I posted this some months back to the P38 forum.. I think it is appropriate [now] to post it here. I received this info from a foreign collector who got it from an importer and forwarded it to me. I have removed some names to protect the guilty and this site [from the lawyers] ========== The guns your friend refers to are brought in to the USA by XXX, from their British company "XXXXXXX" (The owner is an old friend of mine.) The guns actually come from the former Yugoslavia, and are arsenal refinished there. They also sell them through XXXXXXX in Germany to other parts of the world. Your friend should be a little cautious as those boys can make anything "rare." I saw their efforts when they produced several hundred SS "death camp" Mausers. The stamps they use to make the stuff [look] authentic are made in Birmingham, England. The place that makes them does a great trade in C broad arrow and British broad arrow stamps ========= So, now you know! Orv Reichert __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

08-10-2002, 03:17 PM	#31
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	The only two death head Lugers I have ever seen were obvious and crude fakes. One had been touched up over the stamping with a "blueing" pen. I had great luck several years back in acquiring a genuine GEW 98 death head rifle. This gun is 100% correct as an early variation. The photo's of the two death heads on the rifle follow. I have used them as a guide when looking for fakes since I would think that any Death Head Luger would have a similar marking. The key to my spotting the fakes was the mouth of the death heads which should show a full set of teeth. Also, notice the "dimples" on the ends of the crossed bones.

08-11-2002, 01:43 AM	#32
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Mark The markings on your GEW 98 are great looking but not necessarily a good example to use for evaluating Lugers as there is a fair amount of difference, even discounting the SS runes. I have seen what some authorities consider genuine Death Head Lugers both with and without "a full set of teeth". As early as 1958 Fred Datig published in the revised edition of "The Luger Pistol" what is probably the first public illustration of a Death Head Luger and it doesn't have a tooth in its head. Could it be an early fake? Possibly, but that is a little early on to have that happening already. I have a Death Head that I purchased in 1970 for the price of a common Luger that has no teeth. It is not surprising that there may be more than one type of stamp that was used to produce these Lugers over a period of years. The fact that there is the possibility of a variance in marking is shown by your GEW 98 since there is clearly a difference between the two Death Heads on the same rifle. The flip side of this, however, is that this variance is exactly what makes it a fruitful target for forgers and requires increased vigilance on the part of the buyer. Just look at the high occurrance of Death Head Lugers that George Anderson stated in his post. Quite frankly, I would be very hesitant to buy a Death Head Luger today. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-11-2002, 09:27 AM	#33
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I’ve lost track of all the faked Model 98 rifles I have seen in the past five years that have been stamped (or even crudely carved) to present them as authentic SS weapons. Over in the K98k forum, the long running pun is that “Bubba made it” in his basement. The most common forgeries are based on reworked G98 and bnz (Steyr-Daimler-Puch) coded K98 rifles. Both these types are historically recorded as being issued to Waffen-SS and concentration camp guard personnel. The SS managed to swindle a large number of reworked G98 rifles, as well as Steyr model slave labor produced K98s. This was to circumvent the OKH authorities. Anyway, these days anyone who has a “standard” bnz coded K98 (especially the years 1942/43) is liable to succumb to the huge temptation to mark it with a death head and SS rune somehow. This will increase its value by five to six times or more. And Mark, I disagree with you that the markings on German rifles can’t be used as a “good example to use for evaluating Lugers”. The authentic death head markings seem to have a clean uniformity of appearance between German pistols and rifles. In particular, the skull is well defined, and for authentic SS marked ones, the lighting bolts are super sharp and straight. Fake death head markings also share the same bogus inconsistencies between pistols and rifles. Lugers do not exist in some kind of special vacuum Mark. Many K98 and G43 collectors, like Robert Jensen and Darrin Weaver, have got to be some of the better evaluators of German collectable firearms. And as far as MarkC’s G98 is concerned, I have never seen a real SS rifle in publications (or otherwise) that was stamped with two death heads like that. But the super straight and clean lighting bolts makes me believe it’s probably authentic. The left side death head also resembles the one in Robert Ball’s book. But it still makes me wonder. If it is a fake, it’s the best one I’ve ever seen.

08-11-2002, 02:32 PM	#34
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Heydrich, Richard Law's publication "Backbone of the Wehtmacht: Kahr 98K Rifle 1934-45" is a great reference and has a chapter devoted to the death head rifles. There is a photo of the exact dual death head stamping which appears in the book and on my rifle. I appreciate all of the input on my comment regarding what a real death head on a Luger must look like. (I have never seen one so perhaps a forum member can post a picture for us all to look at?) The only real death heads I have seen appear on my rifle and I jumped to a conclusion. Although it is very apparent that this marking is far rarer on Lugers than K98 rifles........ Mark

08-11-2002, 06:51 PM	#35
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mark, I'm familiar with Law's book. But did not have a copy handy at the time. You're right, there is one listed like your rifle in Law's publication. My bad. The lightning bolts on your rifle are too clean anyway.

08-11-2002, 07:26 PM	#36
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Just thought you guys might like to see the death head from the binocular case that came with my rifle. Notice the full set of teeth and dimples on the crossed bones. The binoculars are in OK condition with the name of the soldier in the top of the case. As an aside note, the second death heath on my rifle also has a full set of teeth and dimples on the crossed bones. I will post better photo's if you have any questions.

08-11-2002, 08:06 PM	#37
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	MarkC, I totally agree with you, especially about the teeth on the skull. The German craftsmen were, and still are, proud of their work. Here is a photo of the deaths head on my SS officers hat, note the teeth and other details that set it off from fakes with lesser detail. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-12-2002, 01:29 AM	#38
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Herb; your SS skull is indeed authentic, but I can"t understand why some think a stamping on a gun should be the same as an SS medal. A stamp could never have the detail of a medal. Do you agree? Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

08-12-2002, 04:04 AM	#39
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think Herb just wanted to show off his cool SS artifact.

08-21-2002, 08:33 AM	#40
aaa User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would like to think all of you for your input on this matter. The previous owner of the gun that I purcased, agreed to take it back; he was very fair about the issue. I was unable to get any photos of the gun before I returned it. Im very sorry, I did not have enough time. This was done for several reason: 1. The gun had a bad refinish job (part of it had been repolished and it just didn't look consistant with other period erfurts I have seen) 2. It appered to have some of the markings polished off. 3. I could not get an agreement to some of the individuals I showed the gun to.( they to questioned its lit.) 4. The lessons that the fourm taught me I paid 1000 bucks for the gun, but agree this fine gun (if real) was screwed up when the original owner thought it would be neet to have it plated, thus leaving it in the shooter grade. I did recently see a deaths head at the tulsa gun show for sale at 2500 bucks and its markings looked the same as mine. This still offers no proof. Do all of you agree? Think I will stick to the good stuff in the future!!!!