Reliable 9mm Load for the Luger

[grantman]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

Please see Handloader #326, June 2020, page 20, for a fascinating article on this powder now being marketed by Shooters World Powders as its "Major Pistol" powder. Formerly it was called "Accurate No. 7" (as imported through approximately 2008). Currently it is manufactured by the CZ firm Explosia and is distributed in Europe under the Lovex brand as "D037.1".

This powder is a very fine 9mm Carbine powder quite similar to Vihtavuori 3N37.

Per load data given in the article, for a 4.5 inch pistol barrel, 7 grains yeilds a velocity of 1,029 fps. with a 124 grain bullet.

Please note that this 9mm carbine powder would probably be an excellent powder for the LP-08, as is 3N37

How do you define "middle of the road" please (at what feet per second)? Please remember that the original DWM and German Army load was 123 grain bullet at 1,076 fps from a 100 mm (4 inch) barrel.

Respectfully,

Sieger

Hi Sieger: the Speer manual #15 lists, for AA#7 with a 115 gr. bullet a load range of 8.6 gr to 9.6 gr. (compressed load). Loads are test fired from a S&W 5906 pistol (about a 3.4" bbl, as I recall) The 8.6 grain load offered 1158 fps and the 9.6 grain load offered 1220 fps. I load 8.5 gr and 9.0 gr loads. With COLs of between 1.155 and 1.160, function is perfect. I prefer the 8.5s, as they are gentle on my PO8s. I use the 9.0s in my Star BM and Browning HP.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by grantman

Hi Sieger: the Speer manual #15 lists, for AA#7 with a 115 gr. bullet a load range of 8.6 gr to 9.6 gr. (compressed load). Loads are test fired from a S&W 5906 pistol (about a 3.4" bbl, as I recall) The 8.6 grain load offered 1158 fps and the 9.6 grain load offered 1220 fps. I load 8.5 gr and 9.0 gr loads. With COLs of between 1.155 and 1.160, function is perfect. I prefer the 8.5s, as they are gentle on my PO8s. I use the 9.0s in my Star BM and Browning HP.

Hi,

At that OAL, do you shoot full 8 round magazines with no jamming?

Both your OALs and powder charges seem well off to me.


Respectfully,


Sieger

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi, At that OAL, do you shoot full 8 round magazines with no jamming? Both your OALs and powder charges seem well of to me. Respectfully, Sieger

Note that my OAL for the flat nose bullet is 1.100" and also note how far out the ogive is. It works well at that OAL in my Lugers and a couple of other 9mm pistols that I have.

However, that load will jam in other, newer 9mm pistols - my Sig P6, for example - that have different chambers so I have to seat the bullet deeper for them to chamber properly. In effect, each gun is different.

I think Grantman is using round nose bullets which can be seated out farther because the ogive is farther back. The OAL limit will be set by what will feed through the magazine or chamber in the gun and still function properly.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Doubs

Note that my OAL for the flat nose bullet is 1.100" and also note how far out the ogive is. It works well at that OAL in my Lugers and a couple of other 9mm pistols that I have.

However, that load will jam in other, newer 9mm pistols - my Sig P6, for example - that have different chambers so I have to seat the bullet deeper for them to chamber properly. In effect, each gun is different.

I think Grantman is using round nose bullets which can be seated out farther because the ogive is farther back. The OAL limit will be set by what will feed through the magazine or chamber in the gun and still function properly.

Doubs,

Thank you for your post.

I was discussing Lugers here, not pistols of other, newer designs.

My CZ75 and my Browning High Power are not inhibited in function by their OALs; nor, to a much greater extent than the Luger, are they limited in proper function by their powder charges.


Respectfully,


Sieger

[grantman]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

At that OAL, do you shoot full 8 round magazines with no jamming?

Both your OALs and powder charges seem well of to me.


Respectfully,


Sieger

Hi Sieger:

These work well with good (Mec-gar) mags. No jamming. This is especially true with the 9.0gr. loads. Snappy function, primers slightly less round after firing, compared to the 8.5 grainers. I have found in my PO8s that they are more sensitive to COL variations and magazine quality than to how hot the load is. I start to get more feed jams when the COL hits the 1.165" range, which is close to spec for WW whitebox. Feeding was much better with Magtech ammo which is nominally 1.155" in their 115 FMJ offering. So I started loading to 1.155" I like the AA#7 because a double charge would overflow the case, thus being easier to detect in a progressive loader.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by grantman

Hi Sieger:

These work well with good (Mec-gar) mags. No jamming. This is especially true with the 9.0gr. loads. Snappy function, primers slightly less round after firing, compared to the 8.5 grainers. I have found in my PO8s that they are more sensitive to COL variations and magazine quality than to how hot the load is. I start to get more feed jams when the COL hits the 1.165" range, which is close to spec for WW whitebox. Feeding was much better with Magtech ammo which is nominally 1.155" in their 115 FMJ offering. So I started loading to 1.155" I like the AA#7 because a double charge would overflow the case, thus being easier to detect in a progressive loader.

Hi,

German Army round nose ball was loaded between 1.169 and 1.173 inches. For best function in a Luger, with Meg-Gar magazines, these lengths will feed very trustworthily.

Those powder charges seem way too high to me, but i would have to shoot your actual loadings to verify this. If you are experiencing breach-block slam at these charge weights, you will eventually damage your very fine Luger.

Respectfully,


Sieger

[grantman]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

German Army round nose ball was loaded between 1.169 and 1.173 inches. For best function in a Luger, with Meg-Gar magazines, these lengths will feed very trustworthily.

Those powder charges seem way too high to me, but i would have to shoot your actual loadings to verify this. If you are experiencing breach block slam at these charge weights, you will eventually damage your very fine Luger.

Respectfully,


Sieger

These loads are posted in Speer manuals #14 & 15. For AA#7, the range is 8.6 gr. to 9.6 gr. The 8.6 grainers, fired from a S&W 5906 claim a velocity of roughly 1158fps. I'm loading between 8.5 &9.0 gr. I have yet to chronograph these loads, but I'm guessing the 8.5 grainers will offer less than 1158 fps. Examination of fired cases reveals no excessive pressure signs with either 8.5 or 9.0 grains. The charge weights may seem heavy to those using unique, 231 or bullseye. AA7 is a bulky powder in comparison, but was formulated for 9mm and similar cartridges. In fact, Speer lists a max load for the 9mm Makarov at 8.0 grains. The Mak has a working pressure max of 24,100psi while the 9mm luger operates at a max of 35,000 psi, per Speer. This is interesting stuff, no?

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by grantman

These loads are posted in Speer manuals #14 & 15. For AA#7, the range is 8.6 gr. to 9.6 gr. The 8.6 grainers, fired from a S&W 5906 claim a velocity of roughly 1158fps. I'm loading between 8.5 &9.0 gr. I have yet to chronograph these loads, but I'm guessing the 8.5 grainers will offer less than 1158 fps. Examination of fired cases reveals no excessive pressure signs with either 8.5 or 9.0 grains. The charge weights may seem heavy to those using unique, 231 or bullseye. AA7 is a bulky powder in comparison, but was formulated for 9mm and similar cartridges. In fact, Speer lists a max load for the 9mm Makarov at 8.0 grains. The Mak has a working pressure max of 24,100psi while the 9mm luger operates at a max of 35,000 psi, per Speer. This is interesting stuff, no?

Hi,

I don't think pressure (within reason) is the real issue here to any great extent.

The inherent design of toggle system of the Luger is. This system requires a specific balance between ammo and springs for proper, accurate and reliable function (without damage to the pistol itself). Neither the Mac nor the S&W, you site above, are hampered by these restrictions.

When I can find the time, I will be writing a very detailed explanation of breech-block slam and how this will cause a Luger System to eventually fail mechanically.

Respectfully,


Sieger

[grantman]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

I don't think pressure (within reason) is the real issue here to any great extent.

The inherent design of toggle system of the Luger is. This system requires a specific balance between ammo and springs for proper, accurate and reliable function (without damage to the pistol itself). Neither the Mac nor the S&W, you site above, are hampered by these restrictions.

When I can find the time, I will be writing a very detailed explanation of breech-block slam and how this will cause a Luger System to eventually fail mechanically.

Respectfully,


Sieger

Interesting....what would be the determinant of breech block slam? I would think it would be determined by rate of combustion and pressure curve.