Luger Chambers VS Modern Chambers

[mrerick]

Note that the OAL listed for cartridges in reloading guides are for specific bullets (and bullet profiles).

You can't use the same OAL for a round nose bullet as you would for a flat nose one. It will result in the bullet being seated too shallowly in the case, and this can seriously change the ballistics at time of ignition, the jump into the leade and the engagement hesitation delay. This can then change the peak pressure(s) considerably from what was found experimentally in the manual.

Your 9mm Luger round looks seated far shallow into the case. The bullet should never be actually in contact with the leade while chambered. It needs the "jump" across an air gap to gain adequate acceleration prior to the resistance of leade engagement and hesitation as it starts traveling in the rifling.

What reloading manual are you using, and which cartridge / bullet / powder / primer combination?

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Your 9mm Luger round looks seated far shallow into the case. The bullet should never be actually in contact with the leade while chambered.

It doesn't touch the lands or leade in any of my shooter Lugers which is the whole point of my post. Loaded to an OAL of 1.100" as seen in the picture, there is still a jump to the lands. OTOH, my more modern pistols require seating much deeper for the same jump: 1.035" OAL. The original Luger chambers are much more generous than newer guns. The same applies to my shooter .30 Lugers. The chambers are more generous than newer pistols.

What reloading manual are you using, and which cartridge / bullet / powder / primer combination?

I have more than half a dozen manuals by the major companies; Lyman, Hodgdon, Speer, Sierra, Nosler, Hornady and a few others.

The closest in design to the Berry's plated flat base flat nose bullet is Speer's 115 grain Gold Dot. Hodgdon calls for a maximum load of 5.9 grains of CFE Pistol Powder and an OAL of 1.125". I use 5.6 grains and an OAL of 1.100" and my load drops fully into the chamber and drops freely out of it. Berry's bullets are plated and are softer than the jacket material of the Gold Dot bullets. The load functions my Lugers reliably, is accurate and shows absolutely no signs of pressure.

Cases are whatever I have and primers are standard small pistol primers by Winchester, CCI or S&B. I currently have some Genex that work well.

If you have a modern 9mm handgun, the chances are that the chamber is cut differently than a vintage Luger. I listed three examples of modern handguns I have that require the same bullet to be seated .070" deeper than for my Lugers or they will not chamber because the bullet jams the lands. For them, I lower the powder charge to Hodgdon's starting load of 5.4 grains of CFE Pistol Powder. Again, they give reliable function and accuracy without any pressure signs.

I've been loading for Lugers since 1966; both .30 caliber and 9mm. I've used just about every possible powder and bullet available. Some of the powders like Winchester 730 worked great but isn't made any longer. AA #7 leaves too many powder grains. Unique works beautifully but doesn't work well through a measure. Blue Dot and Herco work but are dirty. Bullseye and 231 are good powders and meter well. The list goes on but CFE Pistol Powder has become my go-to powder for a wide range of pistol cartridges.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Doubs

I've been loading for Lugers since 1966; both .30 caliber and 9mm. I've used just about every possible powder and bullet available. Some of the powders like Winchester 730 worked great but isn't made any longer. AA #7 leaves too many powder grains. Unique works beautifully but doesn't work well through a measure. Blue Dot and Herco work but are dirty. Bullseye and 231 are good powders and meter well. The list goes on but CFE Pistol Powder has become my go-to powder for a wide range of pistol cartridges.

Doubs,

There is a new, "modernized" Herco powder being produced by Alliant (please see their website advertising it).

To what level of cleanness this new powder will shoot in shotguns and pistols (particularly a 9mm Parabellum) is yet to be seen by me.

I weigh all of my powder charges (for both rifle and pistol shooting) with a Lyman Electronic Scale, for precision shooting with both.

With the original formula Herco powder, I haven't noticed a great deal of dirtiness with the 9mm Parabellum; whereas, Unique has always been a filthy burner for me, both in its new and older formulas.

Respectfully,


Sieger

[Sergio Natali]

[QUOTE=Sieger;332062]Doubs,

There is a new, "modernized" Herco powder being produced by Alliant (please see their website advertising it).

To what level of cleanness this new powder will shoot in shotguns and pistols (particularly a 9mm Parabellum) is yet to be seen by me.

I weigh all of my powder charges (for both rifle and pistol shooting) with a Lyman Electronic Scale, for precision shooting with both.

With the original formula Herco powder, I haven't noticed a great deal of dirtiness with the 9mm Parabellum; whereas, Unique has always been a filthy burner for me, both in its new and older formulas...
UNQUOTE


Exactly the same here, in these last ten years or so since I started reloading also for the rifles (308w and 223R) I've been using the Lyman 1200 DPS 2 Digital Powder Scale and Dispenser System, it works really well since benchrest requires extremely precise reloads. I've always used Vihtavuori powder N320 for the pistols and N135 Vihtavuori powders are rather expensive but leave the barrels pretty clean.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Doubs, There is a new, "modernized" Herco powder being produced by Alliant (please see their website advertising it).

To what level of cleanness this new powder will shoot in shotguns and pistols (particularly a 9mm Parabellum) is yet to be seen by me.

I weigh all of my powder charges (for both rifle and pistol shooting) with a Lyman Electronic Scale, for precision shooting with both.

With the original formula Herco powder, I haven't noticed a great deal of dirtiness with the 9mm Parabellum; whereas, Unique has always been a filthy burner for me, both in its new and older formulas.

Respectfully, Sieger

I've settled on CFE Pistol Powder for .30 Luger, 7.63 Mauser, 7.62 Tokarev, 9mm. .40 S&W and .45ACP. It's has a burn rate slightly slower than Unique according to the burn chart and is very clean. I meter it through a powder measure and my loads are very consistent. I weigh every 10th round and am never off more than .1 grains.

Most electronic scales - yours included - are accurate to within .1 grains plus or minus. That's the same accuracy I get from my measure.

For precision rifle loads, I use an A&D EJ-123 scale that is accurate to within 2/100 of a grain. I run my loads off on an RCBS Chargemaster and then fine tune them on the A&D scale.

I go for accuracy and function. I NEVER push my loads to the max. I've never seen the need to do so.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Doubs

I've settled on CFE Pistol Powder for .30 Luger, 7.63 Mauser, 7.62 Tokarev, 9mm. .40 S&W and .45ACP. It's has a burn rate slightly slower than Unique according to the burn chart and is very clean. I meter it through a powder measure and my loads are very consistent. I weigh every 10th round and am never off more than .1 grains.

Most electronic scales - yours included - are accurate to within .1 grains plus or minus. That's the same accuracy I get from my measure.

For precision rifle loads, I use an A&D EJ-123 scale that is accurate to within 2/100 of a grain. I run my loads off on an RCBS Chargemaster and then fine tune them on the A&D scale.

I go for accuracy and function. I NEVER push my loads to the max. I've never seen the need to do so.

Doubs,

Most interesting!

I need to discuss your 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev loads with you right away (in a private message if you would like). I would be most interested in discussing bullet types, diameters and weights with you.

Where can I purchase the A&D scale you mentioned above?

You may think this is a funny observation, but i have noted that some individual powder flakes can easily exceed .1 of a grain, the larger IMR powder series is a good example, so 2/100 of a grain accuracy seems a bit of an overkill to me.

Respectfully,


Sieger

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Doubs, I need to discuss your 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev loads with you right away (in a private message if you would like). I would be most interested in discussing bullet types, diameters and weights with you.

Where can I purchase the A&D scale you mentioned above?

You may think this is a funny observation, but i have noted that some individual powder flakes can easily exceed .1 of a grain, the larger IMR powder series is a good example, so 2/100 of a grain accuracy seems a bit of an overkill to me.

Respectfully, Sieger

For both .30 Luger and .30 Mauser/Tokarev, I use a couple of bullets. The 90 grain .309" Hornady XTP HP works well with 5.0 grains of CFE Pistol Powder in either cartridge. The Luger is a much stronger action than the Mauser so I keep my Mauser loads as mild as possible while reliably functioning the action.

I also use the 85 grain .312" Hornady HP in both cartridges BUT I run them through a Lyman Lubrisizer H&I die and reduce the diameter to .309". I use STP to lube the bullets to reduce friction going into and out of the die. I wash the bullets in water and dish washing liquid to remove the STP. The same 5.0 grains of CFE Pistol Powder works well.

Another bullet I use is the 90 grain Sierra HC with exposed lead as you can see in the picture I used in the first post. It's also a .312" bullet but reduced to .309". Note the change in the profile of the nose created by the punch used when resizing. It turns the bullet into almost a round nose which aids feeding.

Because the cartridges have short necks and neck tension is so critical to prevent bullet setback as the cartridges feed through the action, I use a Lee factory crimp die that makes the case mouth grip the bullet tightly and prevent setback.

The A&D EJ-123 scale came from Old Will Knott Scales; good people to deal with. Not cheap but very good. Just remember to keep it away from florescent lights and any electrical interference to prevent drift. https://www.oldwillknottscales.com/a...on-ej-123.html

Mostly I use H-4895 and similar powders for my rifles. One kernel of powder will usually equal .02 (2/100) of a grain.