What Makes This One "Rare"...?

Pete Ebbink · 10-26-2003, 10:50 PM

Now on auction :

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=5116431

What makes this one so "rare"...? With its asking price of nearly $ 2100 opening bid...? If it is a 1st. Issue P-08 by DWM in made in 1908-09, proofs should be on the left side.

Why would this one not have a chamber date ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Doug G. · 10-26-2003, 11:41 PM

Pete, nothing that I see as rare? Very nice Luger though! As the seller states this is a Weimar era gun, maybe it was a commercial pressed into service? The three proofs on the right look like the Weimar "WAa Dove" proofs. IMHO These guys always seem to be on the high side of prices.

Doubs · 10-26-2003, 11:46 PM

Pete, it's listed as a "Weimar" Luger making it post-WW1. Looks like a typical commercial Luger of that era to me that has been proofed for Weimar Republic use. While it looks to be in unusually nice condition, it's overpriced IMO.

saxman · 10-27-2003, 01:47 PM

Does anyone else see blue over pitting on the RH frame ear?
Doubs; You really helped me with identifying my 'Weimar' on the 'New Acquisition' thread that I sort of hijacked. So, 'Weimar' can mean Imperial pistols proofed for Weimar use as well as newly made guns? If this one were used by the Weimar government, would it not have the serial number on the left side of the frame as well as other proof marks?
Also, I wonder what the suffix is on the serial number. Wouldn't the serial number be 5-digit if it was made post-WWI as a commercial?

Dwight Gruber · 10-28-2003, 09:14 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by saxman:
Also, I wonder what the suffix is on the serial number. Wouldn't the serial number be 5-digit if it was made post-WWI as a commercial?<hr /></blockquote>Not necessarily. Inter-war Commercials ran into 5-digit serial numbers until the 92,000 range; they then converted to the 4-digit/suffix military style known now as "Alphabet Commercial", starting with 2000i about the middle of 1921 (Still, "Weimar Lugers", pp13-15).

--Dwight

saxman · 10-28-2003, 09:16 AM

Also, this Luger looks just like the one on the home page of this site - no numbers visible on the left side, rust blue, straw. What's the story on that one? Is it a 5-digit commercial?

Ron Wood · 10-28-2003, 09:20 AM

saxman,
We will have to wait for John Sabato to reveal the identity of the home page Luger. John retouched a photo of a nice Luger to make it "generic" and representative of a wide range of variations.

John Sabato · 10-28-2003, 10:22 AM

I think the 'cover' of the homepage Luger was blown some time ago... and I don't think the owner minds since he recently emailed me that it gives him much pleasure to see his gun as the opening page...

The gun on the homepage of the Lugerforum is actually a 1937 Krieghoff that at last report was in the collection of Albert Beliard... but he was considering selling it...

The photo, as Ron has pointed out was "sanitized" of markings by me for exactly the reason Ron stated... this photo is one of the best representatives of the 4 inch P-08 and has served the website well... I have received many private emails requested to know what model this is...

I wish that I had more photos of this gun from different angles so that I could create a revolving animation to be on the homepage...

Anyone who has the urge and the technology to create a Luger pistol animation for the homepage is invited to do so... and submit it to me at lugerforum@yahoo.com for consideration... I think it is about time I updated the greeting homepage...

Doubs · 10-28-2003, 12:53 PM

Quote: "Does anyone else see blue over pitting on the RH frame ear?"

Looking at the picture, I see light reflections from the manufacturing milling marks that may be mistaken for pitting. Pre-war and early war Lugers usually had that area polished very nicely but later production dispensed with unnecessary finishing steps.

Quote: "So, 'Weimar' can mean Imperial pistols proofed for Weimar use as well as newly made guns?"

Yes, the Weimar Republic made use of existing Imperial Lugers as well as newly made Lugers. The years following the war were interesting one and almost any configuration of Luger from that time is possible. The reason the serial number doesn't appear on the left side of the receiver is because it's a commercial pistol. Only military issue Lugers had the serial numbers there..... and there are exceptions to that rule!

I strongly urge you to invest in some reference books. Next to actually owning the pistols, there is nothing more satisfying than reading about them. You'll also appreciate your own guns more as you learn about them. Your Imperial/Weimar Luger is a good beginning.

John Sabato · 10-28-2003, 01:32 PM

Doubs,

I can see the problem you are talking about but I cannot discern whether the reflection we are seeing is the result of pitting or just harsh lighting... the right 'ear' blue color seems to be inconsistent with the balance of the gun in that closeup, but if you look at the photo of the whole right side, it seems much closer to the rest of the blue on the gun... I would have to see much better photographs of these areas in order to venture a better opinion...

Doubs · 10-28-2003, 02:24 PM

John, I agree that better pictures would help. Lighting is always a problem when photographing a Luger and they don't always give a true impression of condition. I just made an inquiry about marks that appear in a picture of a Luger and the owner assures me that the "marks" aren't really there.... just a glitch in the picture.

10-26-2003, 10:50 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	What Makes This One "Rare"...? Now on auction : http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=5116431 What makes this one so "rare"...? With its asking price of nearly $ 2100 opening bid...? If it is a 1st. Issue P-08 by DWM in made in 1908-09, proofs should be on the left side. Why would this one not have a chamber date ? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-26-2003, 11:41 PM	#2
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Pete, nothing that I see as rare? Very nice Luger though! As the seller states this is a Weimar era gun, maybe it was a commercial pressed into service? The three proofs on the right look like the Weimar "WAa Dove" proofs. IMHO These guys always seem to be on the high side of prices. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

10-27-2003, 01:47 PM	#4
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Does anyone else see blue over pitting on the RH frame ear? Doubs; You really helped me with identifying my 'Weimar' on the 'New Acquisition' thread that I sort of hijacked. So, 'Weimar' can mean Imperial pistols proofed for Weimar use as well as newly made guns? If this one were used by the Weimar government, would it not have the serial number on the left side of the frame as well as other proof marks? Also, I wonder what the suffix is on the serial number. Wouldn't the serial number be 5-digit if it was made post-WWI as a commercial? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-28-2003, 09:14 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by saxman: <strong>Also, I wonder what the suffix is on the serial number. Wouldn't the serial number be 5-digit if it was made post-WWI as a commercial?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not necessarily. Inter-war Commercials ran into 5-digit serial numbers until the 92,000 range; they then converted to the 4-digit/suffix military style known now as "Alphabet Commercial", starting with 2000i about the middle of 1921 (Still, "Weimar Lugers", pp13-15). --Dwight

10-28-2003, 09:16 AM	#6
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Also, this Luger looks just like the one on the home page of this site - no numbers visible on the left side, rust blue, straw. What's the story on that one? Is it a 5-digit commercial? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-26-2003, 11:46 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	Pete, it's listed as a "Weimar" Luger making it post-WW1. Looks like a typical commercial Luger of that era to me that has been proofed for Weimar Republic use. While it looks to be in unusually nice condition, it's overpriced IMO.

10-28-2003, 09:20 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	saxman, We will have to wait for John Sabato to reveal the identity of the home page Luger. John retouched a photo of a nice Luger to make it "generic" and representative of a wide range of variations. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-28-2003, 10:22 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I think the 'cover' of the homepage Luger was blown some time ago... and I don't think the owner minds since he recently emailed me that it gives him much pleasure to see his gun as the opening page... The gun on the homepage of the Lugerforum is actually a 1937 Krieghoff that at last report was in the collection of Albert Beliard... but he was considering selling it... The photo, as Ron has pointed out was "sanitized" of markings by me for exactly the reason Ron stated... this photo is one of the best representatives of the 4 inch P-08 and has served the website well... I have received many private emails requested to know what model this is... I wish that I had more photos of this gun from different angles so that I could create a revolving animation to be on the homepage... Anyone who has the urge and the technology to create a Luger pistol animation for the homepage is invited to do so... and submit it to me at lugerforum@yahoo.com for consideration... I think it is about time I updated the greeting homepage... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-28-2003, 12:53 PM	#9
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	Quote: "Does anyone else see blue over pitting on the RH frame ear?" Looking at the picture, I see light reflections from the manufacturing milling marks that may be mistaken for pitting. Pre-war and early war Lugers usually had that area polished very nicely but later production dispensed with unnecessary finishing steps. Quote: "So, 'Weimar' can mean Imperial pistols proofed for Weimar use as well as newly made guns?" Yes, the Weimar Republic made use of existing Imperial Lugers as well as newly made Lugers. The years following the war were interesting one and almost any configuration of Luger from that time is possible. The reason the serial number doesn't appear on the left side of the receiver is because it's a commercial pistol. Only military issue Lugers had the serial numbers there..... and there are exceptions to that rule! I strongly urge you to invest in some reference books. Next to actually owning the pistols, there is nothing more satisfying than reading about them. You'll also appreciate your own guns more as you learn about them. Your Imperial/Weimar Luger is a good beginning.

10-28-2003, 01:32 PM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Doubs, I can see the problem you are talking about but I cannot discern whether the reflection we are seeing is the result of pitting or just harsh lighting... the right 'ear' blue color seems to be inconsistent with the balance of the gun in that closeup, but if you look at the photo of the whole right side, it seems much closer to the rest of the blue on the gun... I would have to see much better photographs of these areas in order to venture a better opinion... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-28-2003, 02:24 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	John, I agree that better pictures would help. Lighting is always a problem when photographing a Luger and they don't always give a true impression of condition. I just made an inquiry about marks that appear in a picture of a Luger and the owner assures me that the "marks" aren't really there.... just a glitch in the picture.