Sneak Police with Mag Safety

Hugh · 12-19-2002, 01:42 AM

Couldn't find a Police section, so guess I'll put it here! This is an undated, unmarked toggle, police with complete sear safety and magazine safety. Front grip strap is stamped L. L1. 67, which I assume means Prussian Rural Constabulary, Rural Constabulary District 1, item #67. If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

Edward Tinker · 12-19-2002, 03:48 AM

Looks good Hugh.

Dwight Gruber · 12-19-2002, 04:22 AM

Hugh,

This is the first time I've tried to parse one of these things out, so...the L1. makes me wonder. I don't see a reference to anything like it in either Still or GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryan. Is it positively a 1? Picture??

Otoh, I can say that, according to Still's revised nomenclature, the t serial block makes it a BKIW-manufacture alphabet Commercial, made in the middle of 1929. But you probably knew that. [img]wink.gif[/img]

Is the locking bolt numbered on the edge? It seems curious that the trigger plate is numbered on its face. Is there any indication that it might have been rebarrelled?

It is a nice piece.

--Dwight

saxman · 12-19-2002, 02:24 PM

I've seen the term 'sneak' show up a few times. What is it???

Edward Tinker · 12-19-2002, 02:35 PM

Saxman, it is a made up term of Lugers made during the 30's. No writing on the toggle, so some thought they were sneaks getting past the arms control commission. Newer thinking believes they are transitional from DWM to Mauser, so they were made up and no hidden agenda was really intended. But now, if the gun has few markings, then it is considered a "sneak" by most collectors.

That right guys?

John Sabato · 12-19-2002, 03:18 PM

My personal opinion is that there is truth on both sides of that story...

just my

MauserLugers · 12-19-2002, 08:34 PM

Hi,
Sneaks are actually Lugers that were produced during the 1929-1933 time frame. The are usually found in the "T" and "U" letter blocks, but this time frame included Lugers in the "Q", "R", and "S" blocks also. They are of new manufacture.

There are several different variations of the sneaks in each letter block. You can have a "T" block sneak with a DWM marked toggle, with commercial style serial number placements, or a DWM marked toggle with military style serial number placements. -- Then blank marked toggles with commercial and blank with military style serial numbers. --- That makes 4 different variations within the "T" block. -- Same thing with the "U" block. -- Have never seen a blank toggle in the "Q", "R", or "S" blocks, only DWM marked toggles. These also can have either military or commercial style of serial number placement. --- There are a very few in these letter blocks that were only military Lugers, but most have a sear safety and were police Lugers. The "S" blocks contained some Weimar Navy variations also.

Hugh · 12-19-2002, 11:10 PM

Here are more pictures and info on the "Sneak Luger". Upon closer examination, it appears that the grip strap markings may be L.Li.67, which would indicate Rural Constabulary, Liegnitz District, Item #67.

Here are the proofs & acceptance marks on the right receiver & bbl, and marks on the bottom of the bbl:

To answer some previously asked questions; The sideplate is numbered on both the bottom and the side and the takedown lever is numbered on the bottom.
This picture shows a good view of the tab on the mag safety that blocks the trigger.

Here is a picture of both safetys with the sideplate removed:

The only parts that are not matching (besides the magazine), are the trigger, which has what appears to be a "Mauser replacement code 42" stamp, since it is not in the usual place for a serial number, and the right grip. The left grip has the full serial number stamped on the inside, the right grip, which appears slightly less worn than the left one, has a "42" and an E135 stamp.

And........I must admit that when I got the gun, the mag safety had been disabled and I "enhanced" it by installing a complete one.
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Dwight Gruber · 12-20-2002, 03:21 AM

Hugh,

Excellent photographic documentation. I'm much happier with the "Li." mark interpretation, but I can see how you got the "1".

--Dwight

saxman · 12-23-2002, 12:53 AM

Thank you all for the excellent explanations of the sneak Luger. I'm starting to see why some collectors have a room full of Lugers, but I'm afraid one is going to do it for me.

12-19-2002, 01:42 AM	#1
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Sneak Police with Mag Safety Couldn't find a Police section, so guess I'll put it here! This is an undated, unmarked toggle, police with complete sear safety and magazine safety. Front grip strap is stamped L. L1. 67, which I assume means Prussian Rural Constabulary, Rural Constabulary District 1, item #67. If I am wrong, someone please correct me. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

12-19-2002, 03:48 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	Looks good Hugh. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-19-2002, 02:24 PM	#4
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've seen the term 'sneak' show up a few times. What is it??? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-19-2002, 02:35 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	Saxman, it is a made up term of Lugers made during the 30's. No writing on the toggle, so some thought they were sneaks getting past the arms control commission. Newer thinking believes they are transitional from DWM to Mauser, so they were made up and no hidden agenda was really intended. But now, if the gun has few markings, then it is considered a "sneak" by most collectors. That right guys? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-19-2002, 11:10 PM	#8
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Here are more pictures and info on the "Sneak Luger". Upon closer examination, it appears that the grip strap markings may be L.Li.67, which would indicate Rural Constabulary, Liegnitz District, Item #67. Here are the proofs & acceptance marks on the right receiver & bbl, and marks on the bottom of the bbl: To answer some previously asked questions; The sideplate is numbered on both the bottom and the side and the takedown lever is numbered on the bottom. This picture shows a good view of the tab on the mag safety that blocks the trigger. Here is a picture of both safetys with the sideplate removed: The only parts that are not matching (besides the magazine), are the trigger, which has what appears to be a "Mauser replacement code 42" stamp, since it is not in the usual place for a serial number, and the right grip. The left grip has the full serial number stamped on the inside, the right grip, which appears slightly less worn than the left one, has a "42" and an E135 stamp. And........I must admit that when I got the gun, the mag safety had been disabled and I "enhanced" it by installing a complete one. <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

12-19-2002, 04:22 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Hugh, This is the first time I've tried to parse one of these things out, so...the L1. makes me wonder. I don't see a reference to anything like it in either Still or GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryan. Is it positively a 1? Picture?? Otoh, I can say that, according to Still's revised nomenclature, the t serial block makes it a BKIW-manufacture alphabet Commercial, made in the middle of 1929. But you probably knew that. [img]wink.gif[/img] Is the locking bolt numbered on the edge? It seems curious that the trigger plate is numbered on its face. Is there any indication that it might have been rebarrelled? It is a nice piece. --Dwight

12-19-2002, 03:18 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	My personal opinion is that there is truth on both sides of that story... just my __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-19-2002, 08:34 PM	#7
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, Sneaks are actually Lugers that were produced during the 1929-1933 time frame. The are usually found in the "T" and "U" letter blocks, but this time frame included Lugers in the "Q", "R", and "S" blocks also. They are of new manufacture. There are several different variations of the sneaks in each letter block. You can have a "T" block sneak with a DWM marked toggle, with commercial style serial number placements, or a DWM marked toggle with military style serial number placements. -- Then blank marked toggles with commercial and blank with military style serial numbers. --- That makes 4 different variations within the "T" block. -- Same thing with the "U" block. -- Have never seen a blank toggle in the "Q", "R", or "S" blocks, only DWM marked toggles. These also can have either military or commercial style of serial number placement. --- There are a very few in these letter blocks that were only military Lugers, but most have a sear safety and were police Lugers. The "S" blocks contained some Weimar Navy variations also.

12-20-2002, 03:21 AM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Hugh, Excellent photographic documentation. I'm much happier with the "Li." mark interpretation, but I can see how you got the "1". --Dwight

12-23-2002, 12:53 AM	#10
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you all for the excellent explanations of the sneak Luger. I'm starting to see why some collectors have a room full of Lugers, but I'm afraid one is going to do it for me. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.