Machining marks - Page 2

Hugh · 09-05-2002, 04:41 PM

Here's what my 1940 Mauser Banner Police SN 4122x looks like:

Garfield · 09-05-2002, 04:44 PM

Kidvett:

After viewing your pics of the stripped frame I will vote with those that say your pistol has been refinished. Sorry.

Hugh · 09-05-2002, 05:03 PM

And this is my 1940/42 SN 297b:

Hugh · 09-05-2002, 05:11 PM

Kidvett,

Compare the edges of the panel on the pic of your gun to the two that I posted. Notice at the bottom just above the grip and going around the back of the frame. They are rounded on your gun compared to the sharp edges on my guns. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Jan C Still · 09-05-2002, 05:27 PM

Kidvett
What is the source of your sandblasted luger?
Jan

John Sabato · 09-06-2002, 10:39 AM

Due to all the interest in this particular Luger, I have taken the original enlargement from the top of the thread and enhanced the color balance and contrast and placed it side by side with the color negative of the image which often highlights toolmarks and blemishes...

I don't think there is any question that this Luger was refinished at some point, the burning questions are whether or not this was some type of arsenal rework, or was it commercially refinished by a previous owner/dealer in order to get a higher price? and what did the person who sold it to you know about it?

Good Luck.

unspellable · 09-06-2002, 03:24 PM

If you look at the very first picture at the top of this string and a couple farther down, you can see a gap between the rear toggle link "shoulders" and the receiver ramps. (Not the frame ramps.) This gap should not exist as the back thrust is supposed to be transmitted to the receiver at this point. With a misfit resulting in a gap at this point the backthrust is transmitted to the rear toggle pin. Is this misfit due to sloppy work at the factory or due to an indifferently fitted replacement toggle link? If the latter it could have been replaced anywhere along the line.

The pistol will work with this gap but there is an unintended stress on the rear toggle pin. In the picture I cannot see the other side. Can the pin be removed and reinserted with the cannon cocked?

kidvett · 09-06-2002, 04:30 PM

An update,

Many thanks to everyone helping on this confusing issue! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks to John for the photo editing & Hugh for the great PICS of your pistols

Mr Still:

The pistol was bought from a longtime hunter that bought it ( in this condition ) in the mid 60's. He said he bought from the Vet that got it back....but didnt give much details or info on that. He was not able to tell me more about the pistol's condition...

Yesterday at lunch time: a fellow collector came home to see it and concludes ( but he's not 100% ) that it was refinished at some point....

Then at 9:30PM a guy that wants to start collecting Lugers went to see it and made me an offer on the pistol....I did advise him of the confusion as to being refinished ( IMPORTANT FOR ME )...He's going to give me his final word on the deal Sunday at a local Gunshow...

AUTENTICITY is very important to me and in doubt I pass....

I have to say this particular topic is a great learning experience for me.....

kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

Aaron · 09-06-2002, 05:10 PM

One last question on this subject: I have just examined about fifteen Lugers of varying dates. Machining marks as per this discussion were present in about 2/3 of the Lugers, and these marks ranged from very prominent to very slight. About five of the Lugers showed no marks, but did not appear to be sandblasted. So what do we conclude? All Lugers without machine marks are suspect? Or were some Lugers more carefully finished than others, depending on the skill of different workmen?

Garfield · 09-06-2002, 06:40 PM

Imperial lugers do not "usually" exhibit the "circle" type milling marks found on Mauser military luger, however, they do exibit tooling marks, albeit of a different type. The Mauser Banners, usually, do not show the circle type milling marks, either. If they are present on the Banners they are usually much less apparent; in other words, more attention was given to the finish in this area. On some Banners the circles are present but much smaller.

Pete Ebbink · 09-07-2002, 01:46 PM

Hello Bill,

I do have an authentic, matching 1918 DWM artillery (# 5567 b)that has some even patina under all of its blue that does have some deep circular machining marks quite visible on both flat sections of the "ears" on the frame.

Maybe this happened at DWM during the last days of WWI orders...

If you send me a Private Message with your e-mail, I would be happy to send you some high resolution jpegs of these areas on my arty...

Regrads,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Pete Ebbink · 09-08-2002, 11:41 AM

Thanks, Garfield, for your self-edit with the addition of the word "usually"...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Garfield · 09-08-2002, 12:10 PM

Pete:

No problem. Actually, I should have waited until I have seen your pics as I may have to edit my post again. Mauser type (circles)tooling marks are not what one would expect to on an Imperial luger.

Pete Ebbink · 09-09-2002, 09:40 AM

Garfield,

I am not sure you sent me the right e-mail address...can you try again in a PM...? Sent me some Paul Bunyon web-site stuff...(?)

In the mean time, please take a look at page 41 in C. Kenyon's book, Luger : The Multi-National Pistol.

Pictured is a nice Imperial era 1906 DWM commercial with lots of those "swirly" machining marks on the flat section of the right "ear"...

(I do not think this is an example of "photographic distortion"...)

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-05-2002, 04:41 PM	#21
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Here's what my 1940 Mauser Banner Police SN 4122x looks like: __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-05-2002, 05:03 PM	#23
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	And this is my 1940/42 SN 297b: __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-05-2002, 05:11 PM	#24
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Kidvett, Compare the edges of the panel on the pic of your gun to the two that I posted. Notice at the bottom just above the grip and going around the back of the frame. They are rounded on your gun compared to the sharp edges on my guns. [img]frown.gif[/img] __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-06-2002, 10:39 AM	#26
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Due to all the interest in this particular Luger, I have taken the original enlargement from the top of the thread and enhanced the color balance and contrast and placed it side by side with the color negative of the image which often highlights toolmarks and blemishes... I don't think there is any question that this Luger was refinished at some point, the burning questions are whether or not this was some type of arsenal rework, or was it commercially refinished by a previous owner/dealer in order to get a higher price? and what did the person who sold it to you know about it? Good Luck. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-05-2002, 04:44 PM	#22
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kidvett: After viewing your pics of the stripped frame I will vote with those that say your pistol has been refinished. Sorry.

09-05-2002, 05:27 PM	#25
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Kidvett What is the source of your sandblasted luger? Jan

09-06-2002, 03:24 PM	#27
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	If you look at the very first picture at the top of this string and a couple farther down, you can see a gap between the rear toggle link "shoulders" and the receiver ramps. (Not the frame ramps.) This gap should not exist as the back thrust is supposed to be transmitted to the receiver at this point. With a misfit resulting in a gap at this point the backthrust is transmitted to the rear toggle pin. Is this misfit due to sloppy work at the factory or due to an indifferently fitted replacement toggle link? If the latter it could have been replaced anywhere along the line. The pistol will work with this gap but there is an unintended stress on the rear toggle pin. In the picture I cannot see the other side. Can the pin be removed and reinserted with the cannon cocked?

09-06-2002, 04:30 PM	#28
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	An update, Many thanks to everyone helping on this confusing issue! [img]smile.gif[/img] Thanks to John for the photo editing & Hugh for the great PICS of your pistols Mr Still: The pistol was bought from a longtime hunter that bought it ( in this condition ) in the mid 60's. He said he bought from the Vet that got it back....but didnt give much details or info on that. He was not able to tell me more about the pistol's condition... Yesterday at lunch time: a fellow collector came home to see it and concludes ( but he's not 100% ) that it was refinished at some point.... Then at 9:30PM a guy that wants to start collecting Lugers went to see it and made me an offer on the pistol....I did advise him of the confusion as to being refinished ( IMPORTANT FOR ME )...He's going to give me his final word on the deal Sunday at a local Gunshow... AUTENTICITY is very important to me and in doubt I pass.... I have to say this particular topic is a great learning experience for me..... kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

09-06-2002, 05:10 PM	#29
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	One last question on this subject: I have just examined about fifteen Lugers of varying dates. Machining marks as per this discussion were present in about 2/3 of the Lugers, and these marks ranged from very prominent to very slight. About five of the Lugers showed no marks, but did not appear to be sandblasted. So what do we conclude? All Lugers without machine marks are suspect? Or were some Lugers more carefully finished than others, depending on the skill of different workmen?

09-06-2002, 06:40 PM	#30
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Imperial lugers do not "usually" exhibit the "circle" type milling marks found on Mauser military luger, however, they do exibit tooling marks, albeit of a different type. The Mauser Banners, usually, do not show the circle type milling marks, either. If they are present on the Banners they are usually much less apparent; in other words, more attention was given to the finish in this area. On some Banners the circles are present but much smaller.

09-07-2002, 01:46 PM	#31
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Bill, I do have an authentic, matching 1918 DWM artillery (# 5567 b)that has some even patina under all of its blue that does have some deep circular machining marks quite visible on both flat sections of the "ears" on the frame. Maybe this happened at DWM during the last days of WWI orders... If you send me a Private Message with your e-mail, I would be happy to send you some high resolution jpegs of these areas on my arty... Regrads, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-08-2002, 11:41 AM	#32
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, Garfield, for your self-edit with the addition of the word "usually"... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-08-2002, 12:10 PM	#33
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete: No problem. Actually, I should have waited until I have seen your pics as I may have to edit my post again. Mauser type (circles)tooling marks are not what one would expect to on an Imperial luger.

09-09-2002, 09:40 AM	#34
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Garfield, I am not sure you sent me the right e-mail address...can you try again in a PM...? Sent me some Paul Bunyon web-site stuff...(?) In the mean time, please take a look at page 41 in C. Kenyon's book, Luger : The Multi-National Pistol. Pictured is a nice Imperial era 1906 DWM commercial with lots of those "swirly" machining marks on the flat section of the right "ear"... (I do not think this is an example of "photographic distortion"...) Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />