Black Widow Grips

ToggleTop · 01-23-2003, 08:31 PM

Hello,
I think this topic is about wore out, but! I have this pair of black plastic grips off of a "L" block byf 42 and wanted to share these images with the members and get your opinions. I know the images are not that good, they came off my scanner since I do not have a camera. I have always wondered just who really made the black grips and if there were subcontractors involved in making them? These grips do not have the threaded hole, and the round spots you see on the back of the grips look like they have been dressed with an end mill. These are very nice grips with an excellent checkering pattern. They appear to be made out of plastic instead of the coarse bakelite.

Dwight Gruber · 01-24-2003, 02:46 AM

If you look at authentic BW grips, you will see a thin "scribe line" running around the grips, inside the main smooth outline, separating the checkering diamonds frm the outline itself.

There are other problems with the grips you picture, but this is the one characteristic I can tell you about.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 01-24-2003, 06:03 PM

Two other issues that I have time to mention before I leave the office for the weekend...

The lack of the threaded holes... and the size and location of what I will call the oval shaped "positioning islands" on the back of the grips are unlike any genuine grips I have ever examined. IMHO, I would say these are reproductions... Not bad looking, but reproductions none-the-less.

Silvereagle29 · 01-31-2003, 09:34 PM

Forget the issue, the black plastic (bakelite) grips became common in June of 1941. I suppose about the - q - block. From that point "your choice" it could have been Walnut or black plastic grips and magazine bottoms until the last Luger was made in the - n - block of 1942 (42-byf).
Good Luck
D

Pete Ebbink · 02-01-2003, 09:11 AM

Hello Chester,

Here is a great photo that was posted months ago, showing the inside details of BW grips. I think the concensus here, when that message thread ran, was that this pair was unquestionably real.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Luke · 02-01-2003, 11:12 AM

Pete,

I have to agree with you. I actually made a study of about 10 pairs known to be authentic. I believe that the ones you show in the picture are correct, as they appear to be identical to those I reviewed.

Luke

ToggleTop · 02-01-2003, 04:20 PM

Thanks To All, <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
We seem to be centered on one style of plastic grips that seem to be original! This continues to bother me since we apparently have no documentation to support such a position. The decision is made based on what we examine. To add to the problem there have been so many reproductions added to the mix we have confined the originals to one fixed pattern. I guess we will never know for sure if there may have been other original styles made by another manufacturer!

Warm Regards,

JohnF · 02-01-2003, 04:32 PM

I just bought what purports to be a BYF 41 with original "Black Widow" grips. I'll post the grips as soon as I have it and look forward to the forum members comments.

John Sabato · 02-02-2003, 03:39 AM

ToggleTop

Despite the lack of documentation or other authority on the subject, the reason that Luke and I have come to the conclusion that there was only ONE style of bakelite grip put on the 'byf' series Lugers is that the grips that we have examined were submitted by forum members who had some form of provenance about the authenticity of the grips on their original vet bring-back Lugers...

These subject grips came from guns that spanned the production period for the 'byf' series Lugers and all had very distinct markings and features in common.

So without documentation to the contrary, we must conclude that without additional evidence that other types of grips were manufactured and issued with "byf" series Mauser Lugers, we seen no evidence to support such a conclusion.

Virtually all of the grips that we have seen (and I have examined about 20 pairs that span the production time) have marks so closely identical, and are made from bakelite that exhibits the same characteristics, that Luke and I stongly believe that all of these grips came from the same master copy, or possibly even the SAME MOLD. Reproducing lookalike grips is one thing, but to go to the expense necessary to reproduce these grips not only in the identical material, but to the point that they have identical mold marks, is not only highly unlikely, but improbable since there wouldn't be enough demand to justify the cost. That is why the reproductions are no where near as expensive as the originals.

Those of you who own shooters that wear original black bakelite grips are strongly suggested to get yourself some inexpensive shooter grips and preserve the originals... Bakelite cracks very easily, and the older it gets the more brittle it is.

VOPO brown plastic grips make good shooter grips.

If I can ever dedicate the time, it is our intention (Luke and I) to document our study as a web page addition to this website for all to read...

Luke · 02-02-2003, 04:07 AM

John states the case very well.

We cannot conclusively state that other types are not authentic. However, this one type with the same markings, identified by owners as having known authenticity, seems to show up consistently.

I have written ToggleTop directly to ask for more details, as I am pretty confident that his grips are identical to those already examined.

Luke

Frank · 02-02-2003, 05:15 AM

Hello All! Nice topic and some great comments. As for me, I think I can identify an original set of Black Bakelite Luger Grips. Those appear as shown by Pete's Photos, with some variation in the placement of the threaded holes. Some grip panels have one threaded hole and some have two.

Now having said that, ToggleTop's argument certainly has merit, in regards to other potential configurations that may also be "original"!

I am not from Missouri, but unless someone can prove which other configurations are "original", I will stick to the data I already have researched!

My 2Ã?Â¢ worth!!

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

(ADDITIONAL COMMENT: The above post pertains to Military Mausers ONLY) <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 02-02-2003, 06:27 AM

I recalled seeing some Mauser-like black, coarse grips in R. Gibson's book; thinking that Chester's grips might be an example of these.

But after looking at pages 46-50 in the Gibson book, IMHO, I do not think Chester's pair are HK grips, either...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 02-03-2003, 07:44 AM

The position 'ovals' or 'islands' as shown in this photo comparison of the submitted photo compared to a known BW grip are the most interesting issue for me. I have not previously seen these features in this shape and position.

Notice the drastic differences in the manner and techniques used to finish the two different grips...

If anyone has grips that are similar to the one shown on the left, I would love to hear about what kind of Luger they were found on, and also to see clear photographs...

JohnF · 02-04-2003, 12:47 AM

Here are the grips from a BYF 41 that I just purchased. Overall, they look OK to me. The material appears to be bakelite and - hard to quantify - they look old. The inside has threaded holes and the outside has a line between the chequering and the grip edges. The inside of the right grip looks a bit beaten up and has what look like mould marks. What's the opinion of the forum on these? (I didn't pay a premium to get them so if they're real it's a bonus.)
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/BWGripsinside.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/BWGripsoutside.JPG

John Sabato · 02-04-2003, 03:33 AM

JohnF

IMHO, you have genuine original bakelite grips. Congrats!

I will add your photos to my study. I would appreciate it if you could give me a real hi-res photo of the two positioning islands that I have identified in the left grip.

Thanks!

JohnF · 02-04-2003, 04:20 AM

Thanks John, I'm pleased that they appear to be genuine. Here's the photo that you requested. I'll give you the data on the pistol too - it's a BYF 41 S/N 8247 - all matching. I can't work out what letter the script suffix is and will post it for guidance once I manage to take a clear photo of it. On the minus side it's been refinished, probably in East Germany as there is an X in a circle marked on it - plus, of course, it's a dewat. ( No prison for me please.)
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Posisland.JPG

01-23-2003, 08:31 PM	#1
ToggleTop User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 297 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Black Widow Grips Hello, I think this topic is about wore out, but! I have this pair of black plastic grips off of a "L" block byf 42 and wanted to share these images with the members and get your opinions. I know the images are not that good, they came off my scanner since I do not have a camera. I have always wondered just who really made the black grips and if there were subcontractors involved in making them? These grips do not have the threaded hole, and the round spots you see on the back of the grips look like they have been dressed with an end mill. These are very nice grips with an excellent checkering pattern. They appear to be made out of plastic instead of the coarse bakelite. __________________ *********************** ToggleTop************* JustHappenToLoveLugers *************************

01-24-2003, 06:03 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Two other issues that I have time to mention before I leave the office for the weekend... The lack of the threaded holes... and the size and location of what I will call the oval shaped "positioning islands" on the back of the grips are unlike any genuine grips I have ever examined. IMHO, I would say these are reproductions... Not bad looking, but reproductions none-the-less. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-01-2003, 11:12 AM	#6
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Pete, I have to agree with you. I actually made a study of about 10 pairs known to be authentic. I believe that the ones you show in the picture are correct, as they appear to be identical to those I reviewed. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-01-2003, 04:20 PM	#7
ToggleTop User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TN Posts: 297 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks To All, <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> We seem to be centered on one style of plastic grips that seem to be original! This continues to bother me since we apparently have no documentation to support such a position. The decision is made based on what we examine. To add to the problem there have been so many reproductions added to the mix we have confined the originals to one fixed pattern. I guess we will never know for sure if there may have been other original styles made by another manufacturer! Warm Regards, __________________ *********************** ToggleTop************* JustHappenToLoveLugers *************************

02-02-2003, 03:39 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	ToggleTop Despite the lack of documentation or other authority on the subject, the reason that Luke and I have come to the conclusion that there was only ONE style of bakelite grip put on the 'byf' series Lugers is that the grips that we have examined were submitted by forum members who had some form of provenance about the authenticity of the grips on their original vet bring-back Lugers... These subject grips came from guns that spanned the production period for the 'byf' series Lugers and all had very distinct markings and features in common. So without documentation to the contrary, we must conclude that without additional evidence that other types of grips were manufactured and issued with "byf" series Mauser Lugers, we seen no evidence to support such a conclusion. Virtually all of the grips that we have seen (and I have examined about 20 pairs that span the production time) have marks so closely identical, and are made from bakelite that exhibits the same characteristics, that Luke and I stongly believe that all of these grips came from the same master copy, or possibly even the SAME MOLD. Reproducing lookalike grips is one thing, but to go to the expense necessary to reproduce these grips not only in the identical material, but to the point that they have identical mold marks, is not only highly unlikely, but improbable since there wouldn't be enough demand to justify the cost. That is why the reproductions are no where near as expensive as the originals. Those of you who own shooters that wear original black bakelite grips are strongly suggested to get yourself some inexpensive shooter grips and preserve the originals... Bakelite cracks very easily, and the older it gets the more brittle it is. VOPO brown plastic grips make good shooter grips. If I can ever dedicate the time, it is our intention (Luke and I) to document our study as a web page addition to this website for all to read... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-24-2003, 02:46 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	If you look at authentic BW grips, you will see a thin "scribe line" running around the grips, inside the main smooth outline, separating the checkering diamonds frm the outline itself. There are other problems with the grips you picture, but this is the one characteristic I can tell you about. --Dwight

01-31-2003, 09:34 PM	#4
Silvereagle29 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 105 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Forget the issue, the black plastic (bakelite) grips became common in June of 1941. I suppose about the - q - block. From that point "your choice" it could have been Walnut or black plastic grips and magazine bottoms until the last Luger was made in the - n - block of 1942 (42-byf). Good Luck D

02-01-2003, 09:11 AM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Hello Chester, Here is a great photo that was posted months ago, showing the inside details of BW grips. I think the concensus here, when that message thread ran, was that this pair was unquestionably real. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-01-2003, 04:32 PM	#8
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I just bought what purports to be a BYF 41 with original "Black Widow" grips. I'll post the grips as soon as I have it and look forward to the forum members comments.

02-02-2003, 04:07 AM	#10
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	John states the case very well. We cannot conclusively state that other types are not authentic. However, this one type with the same markings, identified by owners as having known authenticity, seems to show up consistently. I have written ToggleTop directly to ask for more details, as I am pretty confident that his grips are identical to those already examined. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-02-2003, 05:15 AM	#11
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 165 Times in 87 Posts	Hello All! Nice topic and some great comments. As for me, I think I can identify an original set of Black Bakelite Luger Grips. Those appear as shown by Pete's Photos, with some variation in the placement of the threaded holes. Some grip panels have one threaded hole and some have two. Now having said that, ToggleTop's argument certainly has merit, in regards to other potential configurations that may also be "original"! I am not from Missouri, but unless someone can prove which other configurations are "original", I will stick to the data I already have researched! My 2Ã?Â¢ worth!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> (ADDITIONAL COMMENT: The above post pertains to Military Mausers ONLY) <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" />

02-02-2003, 06:27 AM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	I recalled seeing some Mauser-like black, coarse grips in R. Gibson's book; thinking that Chester's grips might be an example of these. But after looking at pages 46-50 in the Gibson book, IMHO, I do not think Chester's pair are HK grips, either... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-03-2003, 07:44 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	The position 'ovals' or 'islands' as shown in this photo comparison of the submitted photo compared to a known BW grip are the most interesting issue for me. I have not previously seen these features in this shape and position. Notice the drastic differences in the manner and techniques used to finish the two different grips... If anyone has grips that are similar to the one shown on the left, I would love to hear about what kind of Luger they were found on, and also to see clear photographs... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-04-2003, 12:47 AM	#14
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here are the grips from a BYF 41 that I just purchased. Overall, they look OK to me. The material appears to be bakelite and - hard to quantify - they look old. The inside has threaded holes and the outside has a line between the chequering and the grip edges. The inside of the right grip looks a bit beaten up and has what look like mould marks. What's the opinion of the forum on these? (I didn't pay a premium to get them so if they're real it's a bonus.) http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/BWGripsinside.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/BWGripsoutside.JPG

02-04-2003, 03:33 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	JohnF IMHO, you have genuine original bakelite grips. Congrats! I will add your photos to my study. I would appreciate it if you could give me a real hi-res photo of the two positioning islands that I have identified in the left grip. Thanks! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-04-2003, 04:20 AM	#16
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks John, I'm pleased that they appear to be genuine. Here's the photo that you requested. I'll give you the data on the pistol too - it's a BYF 41 S/N 8247 - all matching. I can't work out what letter the script suffix is and will post it for guidance once I manage to take a clear photo of it. On the minus side it's been refinished, probably in East Germany as there is an X in a circle marked on it - plus, of course, it's a dewat. ( No prison for me please.) http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Posisland.JPG