Need info for Luger Erfurt 1917

ERFURT_LUGER · 03-18-2004, 11:51 PM

Hello =)

To make a short story, I'm from Montreal, Canada. I got a Luger from my grandfather who did WW2. I know he went to Germany but I don't know if he took the Luger from there. Maybe he just bought it after. I don't know. =(

I think my Luger has a little something special. I'll tell you why later in this post.

First, I'm not really informed about Lugers. I'd like to know more about the history of these nice guns. So I'll try to learn more about them.

I know it's a Erfurt 1917 (1917, is this the year? And Erfurt, is this the manufacturer). Many of the parts is marked with 64. I can see three numbers 5964 on it. I guess it's the serial number. I can see a lots of small logos everywhere on the Luger. I think it's was the aprobations when they made it. Soon, I will be able to show some pictures.

Here comes the greatest part. What is very special on it, there is,I think, an officer name on the handle. It's exacly engrave like that:

Offz.Stellv. Barthel
5.172.

This is very interesting I think. I wonder if it's really a German Officer? I wonder if somebody has a name on is Luger like I have on my. Is anybody saw this before? I'm sure I'm not the only one but maybe it is very rare?

I will try to upload or set up a small web page of my Luger's pictures as soon as possible so it will be easier to see all the details for those who would like to tell me more about it.

Thanks for your help.

Sorry if my english sound bad. I did my best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 03-19-2004, 12:01 AM

HELLO HUGH AND WELCOME

Yes, your luger is a 1917 Erfurt, the various "acceptance" marks are Erfurt acceptance markings.

Many times there are "Unit Markings" on the grip strap, but usually not a soldiers name? It is unusual and maybe rare, but would not bring the value up very much! But, its history and still cool!

Your english is MUCH better than my French

Ed

kidvett · 03-19-2004, 07:18 AM

Hello !!

It was not uncommon for soldiers to etch/engrave their names on grips & holsters of issued and/or captured equipement...( I have a P38 holster displaying a cute little Donald Duck on the flap...Navy/Marine capture Rig ?? )

As John pointed out it doesnt add value...

Erfurt production in 1917 was 150 000 pistols...

Photos are always nice....

MARK

George Anderson · 03-19-2004, 07:51 AM

Montreal, Is the marking on the back strap of the luger grip? I have a 1908 military marked on the back strap "Offzstllv.M.Plank." Some among the Luger collecting community believe this to be either an official marking or a personal marking if indeed warrant officers had to purchase their own weapons as did commissioned officers.

"Offzstllv" or your variation of it is an abbreviation for Offizier Stellvertretter(?), according to Klaus Schad, this is a rank somewhere between warrant officer and second lieutenant.

Your luger is the only one other than my own and one in Malta, as I recall, that I have heard of marked to an officer. I believe it to be quite rare and I would certainly pay a premium to own it.

ERFURT_LUGER · 03-19-2004, 03:02 PM

Thank you all for all your informations. George, to awnser your question, the the engrave letter are on the front of the handle. George, where can I see your picture of your Luger?

And MARK, next week, I`ll get my pictures and I will be able to show them on the web. I'll try to make good detailed pictures so you can see all the details.

My luger needs to be cleaned up. It has not been done for a long time. Anybody knows where I can find informations about products and technics to clean an old Luger?

Ed, do you think I would be crazy to make reseach on that name thats on my Luger. You never know, maybe he is important. I think I will try to make some research. We never know. Well, I know its almost impossible

... But I like big challenge and I'm sure it will be fun to search.

Wish you all a nice week end and stay tuned for my pictures comming soon.

Have a nice weekend!!!

Hu

Edward Tinker · 03-19-2004, 03:19 PM

Hugh, I have a 1918 with a WW2 GI name on it and I am trying to track down information! So that is half the fun, isn't brother!

Ed

George Anderson · 03-19-2004, 03:37 PM

Montreal, send me your email address and I will send photos of my grip strap. My email address is keoki77@earthlink.net. Klaus was able to find one "Plank" who was a lieutenant in the Bavarian army in WWI and I found a couple in the Prussian and Wuertemberger armies. I will check my Ranglisten for your guy but do not hold out much hope as the Offizier Stelvertretter would probably not be listed in a Rangliste. As your pistol is dated 1917, which is late in the war, he may not have been promoted further prior to the end of the war in November of 1918.

I will check my Ranglisten both for the first war and second. He may have survived the first and been a commissioned officer in the second. It's a stretch but one never knows.

Edward Tinker · 03-19-2004, 03:45 PM

George, could I post it here for you?

Finding another with the same writing is pretty interesting!

Ed

Vlim · 03-19-2004, 04:02 PM

Hi,

I'm not suprised that officers during WW1 (in this case an Offizier-Stellvertreter) would mark their guns as their property, since these guns were their property as officers were supposed to buy their own side arms.

I think he's from the 172nd Infantry Regiment, 5th Company.

George Anderson · 03-19-2004, 04:23 PM

Here are three photos of my 1908. The serial number is 2607b. It retains 95%+ of original bluing as well as straw. All parts match with the exception of the magazine. I picked it up in a sporting firearms store here in Virginia some five years ago. Montreal, of some fifty Imperial Lugers that I own, this is perhaps my favorite.

George Anderson · 03-19-2004, 04:51 PM

Check out the 1913 post in this category also.

kidvett · 03-19-2004, 10:27 PM

Hello Hu

We want photos !!

Cleaning: use Hoppe's No 9 Solvent as it is very good & easy to find ( LeBaron, DantÃ?Â©, etc ) Clean parts with an old toothbrush...

Grips: CAUTION IN REMOVING THEM !! as they have a tendency to stick to the frame. Also be carefull with the `` behind the safety `` area: easy to chip...Old toothbrush + Simple Green to degrease them mild dishsoap...Let them dry completely....

A nice idea is to do a good cleanup and present photos after......

MARK

kidvett · 03-19-2004, 10:30 PM

George,

You have a superb 1908 !! We dont see nice pistols like this anymore......as they have dissapeared in private collections......In talking with various Canadian Collectors lately this trend has been observed across the country in the last 2 years......

MARK

George Anderson · 03-20-2004, 11:54 AM

Mark, on behalf of my pistol, I appreciate the compliment and wait to see some photos from Montreal.

ERFURT_LUGER · 03-23-2004, 01:11 PM

Hi folks! =)

Yes Ill get the pictures tonight or tomorrow. But it has not been cleaned yet. I will make sure to know exacly how to clean it properly. I don't want to make a mistake. So Mark, don't worry, I'll put the picture soon online and thanks for your advises on how to clean my Luger.

Nice pictures George! Nice Luger.

ERFURT_LUGER · 03-25-2004, 12:07 PM

I just post a new topic with my Luger's pictures for those who are interested.

=)

03-18-2004, 11:51 PM	#1
ERFURT_LUGER User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need info for Luger Erfurt 1917 Hello =) To make a short story, I'm from Montreal, Canada. I got a Luger from my grandfather who did WW2. I know he went to Germany but I don't know if he took the Luger from there. Maybe he just bought it after. I don't know. =( I think my Luger has a little something special. I'll tell you why later in this post. First, I'm not really informed about Lugers. I'd like to know more about the history of these nice guns. So I'll try to learn more about them. I know it's a Erfurt 1917 (1917, is this the year? And Erfurt, is this the manufacturer). Many of the parts is marked with 64. I can see three numbers 5964 on it. I guess it's the serial number. I can see a lots of small logos everywhere on the Luger. I think it's was the aprobations when they made it. Soon, I will be able to show some pictures. Here comes the greatest part. What is very special on it, there is,I think, an officer name on the handle. It's exacly engrave like that: Offz.Stellv. Barthel 5.172. This is very interesting I think. I wonder if it's really a German Officer? I wonder if somebody has a name on is Luger like I have on my. Is anybody saw this before? I'm sure I'm not the only one but maybe it is very rare? I will try to upload or set up a small web page of my Luger's pictures as soon as possible so it will be easier to see all the details for those who would like to tell me more about it. Thanks for your help. Sorry if my english sound bad. I did my best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> __________________ Hello There! =) Bonjour!

03-19-2004, 12:01 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	HELLO HUGH AND WELCOME Yes, your luger is a 1917 Erfurt, the various "acceptance" marks are Erfurt acceptance markings. Many times there are "Unit Markings" on the grip strap, but usually not a soldiers name? It is unusual and maybe rare, but would not bring the value up very much! But, its history and still cool! Your english is MUCH better than my French Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-19-2004, 03:02 PM	#5
ERFURT_LUGER User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you all for all your informations. George, to awnser your question, the the engrave letter are on the front of the handle. George, where can I see your picture of your Luger? And MARK, next week, I`ll get my pictures and I will be able to show them on the web. I'll try to make good detailed pictures so you can see all the details. My luger needs to be cleaned up. It has not been done for a long time. Anybody knows where I can find informations about products and technics to clean an old Luger? Ed, do you think I would be crazy to make reseach on that name thats on my Luger. You never know, maybe he is important. I think I will try to make some research. We never know. Well, I know its almost impossible ... But I like big challenge and I'm sure it will be fun to search. Wish you all a nice week end and stay tuned for my pictures comming soon. Have a nice weekend!!! Hu __________________ Hello There! =) Bonjour!

03-19-2004, 03:19 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Hugh, I have a 1918 with a WW2 GI name on it and I am trying to track down information! So that is half the fun, isn't brother! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-19-2004, 03:45 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	George, could I post it here for you? Finding another with the same writing is pretty interesting! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-19-2004, 07:18 AM	#3
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hello !! It was not uncommon for soldiers to etch/engrave their names on grips & holsters of issued and/or captured equipement...( I have a P38 holster displaying a cute little Donald Duck on the flap...Navy/Marine capture Rig ?? ) As John pointed out it doesnt add value... Erfurt production in 1917 was 150 000 pistols... Photos are always nice.... MARK

03-19-2004, 07:51 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Montreal, Is the marking on the back strap of the luger grip? I have a 1908 military marked on the back strap "Offzstllv.M.Plank." Some among the Luger collecting community believe this to be either an official marking or a personal marking if indeed warrant officers had to purchase their own weapons as did commissioned officers. "Offzstllv" or your variation of it is an abbreviation for Offizier Stellvertretter(?), according to Klaus Schad, this is a rank somewhere between warrant officer and second lieutenant. Your luger is the only one other than my own and one in Malta, as I recall, that I have heard of marked to an officer. I believe it to be quite rare and I would certainly pay a premium to own it.

03-19-2004, 03:37 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Montreal, send me your email address and I will send photos of my grip strap. My email address is keoki77@earthlink.net. Klaus was able to find one "Plank" who was a lieutenant in the Bavarian army in WWI and I found a couple in the Prussian and Wuertemberger armies. I will check my Ranglisten for your guy but do not hold out much hope as the Offizier Stelvertretter would probably not be listed in a Rangliste. As your pistol is dated 1917, which is late in the war, he may not have been promoted further prior to the end of the war in November of 1918. I will check my Ranglisten both for the first war and second. He may have survived the first and been a commissioned officer in the second. It's a stretch but one never knows.

03-19-2004, 04:02 PM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, I'm not suprised that officers during WW1 (in this case an Offizier-Stellvertreter) would mark their guns as their property, since these guns were their property as officers were supposed to buy their own side arms. I think he's from the 172nd Infantry Regiment, 5th Company.

03-19-2004, 04:23 PM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Here are three photos of my 1908. The serial number is 2607b. It retains 95%+ of original bluing as well as straw. All parts match with the exception of the magazine. I picked it up in a sporting firearms store here in Virginia some five years ago. Montreal, of some fifty Imperial Lugers that I own, this is perhaps my favorite.

03-19-2004, 04:51 PM	#11
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Check out the 1913 post in this category also.

03-19-2004, 10:27 PM	#12
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hello Hu We want photos !! Cleaning: use Hoppe's No 9 Solvent as it is very good & easy to find ( LeBaron, DantÃ?Â©, etc ) Clean parts with an old toothbrush... Grips: CAUTION IN REMOVING THEM !! as they have a tendency to stick to the frame. Also be carefull with the `` behind the safety `` area: easy to chip...Old toothbrush + Simple Green to degrease them mild dishsoap...Let them dry completely.... A nice idea is to do a good cleanup and present photos after...... MARK

03-19-2004, 10:30 PM	#13
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	George, You have a superb 1908 !! We dont see nice pistols like this anymore......as they have dissapeared in private collections......In talking with various Canadian Collectors lately this trend has been observed across the country in the last 2 years...... MARK

03-20-2004, 11:54 AM	#14
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Mark, on behalf of my pistol, I appreciate the compliment and wait to see some photos from Montreal.

03-23-2004, 01:11 PM	#15
ERFURT_LUGER User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi folks! =) Yes Ill get the pictures tonight or tomorrow. But it has not been cleaned yet. I will make sure to know exacly how to clean it properly. I don't want to make a mistake. So Mark, don't worry, I'll put the picture soon online and thanks for your advises on how to clean my Luger. Nice pictures George! Nice Luger. __________________ Hello There! =) Bonjour!

03-25-2004, 12:07 PM	#16
ERFURT_LUGER User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just post a new topic with my Luger's pictures for those who are interested. =) __________________ Hello There! =) Bonjour!