Mauser Banner Police Lugers

MauserLugers · 09-11-2002, 04:53 PM

Enough serious stuff, lets have some fun. Please tell me what you believe to be the rarest or hardest Mauser Banner police Lugers to find? Please give me your order of say the hardest 6 to find in the order you feel they are. Remember, just the Mauser Banner Police Lugers. After a few posts I'll post what I feel they are and you can agree or disagree with me. Good collecting!

Edward Tinker · 09-11-2002, 06:26 PM

MauserLugers, well I have no idea! I would imagine the 6 you have in mind, you probably have three of them and I bet it would be hard for me to get them [img]smile.gif[/img]

Really, this will be a good thread, IF we can find those with the knowledge and with a couple of banners (or six).

John Sabato · 09-11-2002, 06:38 PM

This is a perfect example of what this forum is all about... I applaud you Bill for starting what will no doubt be an educational thread for us all...

MauserLugers · 09-11-2002, 07:46 PM

Come on Ed, John, give us your opinion -- there is no wrong answer here.

Edward Tinker · 09-11-2002, 09:13 PM

No Bill, I HAVE no Idea! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] My knowledge on Lugers is what I presently have, although I can appreciate them much more than last year this time. The police ones interest me, I expect that Police Luger will have set ideas, but I would "expect" that certain years are hard to come by.

So, start this off.

#6 Hardest to find and why? [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'll guess on the next ones, brought Imperial Lugers with me on the trip, so can't look up my "guess"

MauserLugers · 09-11-2002, 10:20 PM

Hi,
To start this off, my 6 hardest police Banners would be:

(1) 41 two digit Banner with police E/L -- Extremely hard Luger to find, let alone an Police marked variation. Approximately 7 known and found in the 600Y to 1200Y range. Still suggests about 500 procured, but I feel it is more likely about 25 or 50.

(2) 42 two digit Banner with E/L -- Again, extremely hard to find. More commercial variations in this model than the 41 two digit, but the police variation are scarce. Approximately 5 known and found in the 8000Y to 9000Y range. Still suggests about 300 procured, but again, I feel it is more likely about 25 to 50.

(3) 1940 Swiss commercial with E/L. These are extremely hard to find and might be the hardest of any. They were taken from the Swiss commercial contract and sent to the police. They have strawed parts, a sear safety, and E/L marked. Approximately 3 known. They are found in the 6000W to 7000W range.

(4) This is a tricky one, as Jan Still has these labeled in his book as a Banner Army, but all the ones I have seen with a matching magazine were marked with a 1 or 2 to suggest to me they are actually police Lugers. This would be the 1939 "Banner Army" found in the low 600X serial range and only 3 known. They are drilled for a sear safety, but it was never added and they have two 655 proofs on the right receiver but no army test proof on the receiver or barrel.

(5) This would be the 1938 E/K variation. Found in the low 7000V range. Approximately 275 made and only around 16 recorded.

(6) Probably the 1940 E/C. Seldom seen. Approximately 20 known and found in the 1100X to 2500X serial range. Approximately 1100 procured.

(7) Next would be the 1940 "Banner Army" -Approximately 20 known and in the 600X to 1500X serial range. Same characteristics as the 1939 and the 1940 E/C follows these.

(8) There is suppose to be a 1939 E/F in the V block with only something like 5 known. Most of the 1939 E/F's were in the low "W" block. As with all of the hard to find variations, messed or counterfiet pieces are more commonly seen than the real examples. All the numbers posted here are rough estimates and I'm sure more are actually out there than have been recored. Serial ranges are also rough estimates.

Thats my guess, what's yours?

Ron Wood · 09-12-2002, 02:02 AM

Bill,
Being an early Luger nut, this topic is way out of my league but I think it is extremely informative and a lot of fun. Thank you.

Thor · 09-12-2002, 09:17 AM

well The 41 byf in the "o" block (a real one) of course. Still flinch about that one! Page 83 of TRL.

MauserLugers · 09-12-2002, 03:50 PM

Hi Ted,
That is a good choice, although it is not a Banner. The byf 41 police variation is a hard variation to find. I've seen them in the O, P, and I have a complete rig in the T block. Seldom seen and a very good variation and a very good choice. Thanks Ted!

Thor · 09-12-2002, 04:16 PM

oops, you are right, I missed that part!

John Sabato · 09-12-2002, 04:51 PM

I couldn't even begin to guess Bill... where is that new guy "policeluger" when you need him?

Hey Howard are you listening? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

policeluger · 09-12-2002, 08:12 PM

Here I am, between hunts, yes there are things more important the Lugers. Sorry MauserLuger that we missed in Montana, by the time I got to Butte, and the taxidermy on friday, the show still had about 4 hours to go before it opened, and with a load of frozen buffalo meat to get home I did not stick around. I collect mostly in the Weimar era police, and of course the guns saw action into the WW11 era and even post WW11 military use (would love to go into the post 1945 use of the Luger in Germany sometime). I can not argue with MauserLuger much here, however, I would have to add the "small" date 1942 in the 5000y range near the top.

MauserLugers · 09-12-2002, 08:13 PM

Hi John,
Come on and give some picks -- nothing ventured, nothing gained?? These are your picks and there are no wrong picks.

John Sabato · 09-13-2002, 01:17 PM

I got some help on this one as this pistol is for sale! Check out the for sale forum...

Mauser Swiss Police (small banner) in the 'u' block with only a 4 inch barrel...

My compadre Tom Armstrong says this is a rare one!

Jim W · 09-20-2002, 12:10 PM

I have a very nice two digit 42 Banner, E/L all matching rig except the mags...serial number is (deep breath) 1418y. YIKES, its not in the accepted range! so here is the big question...looking at the serials of the two digit 41 and 42 Banners in Costanzo and Still, they appear to have been "set aside" from the four digit ( I assume regular production) runs...Why would this be?? By the serials, my pistol "should" be a 41 date, but then look at the spread in the 41 dates reported! Any ideas?? I have not yet done a serious comparison of stamps of Banner vs byf toggles and frames etc...but it sure looks like original matched to me.

MauserLugers · 09-25-2002, 11:39 PM

Hi Jim,
You have a real odd-ball here. Serial number 1418Y should actually be a 1941 Large Date Eagle L (four digit) according to the serial number. I have 1138Y which is a four digit large date 1941 E/L.

The two digit 41's and 42's in the "Y" block are in a fairly tight group. The Eagle L police marked two digit 42's are usually only found in the low 8000Y range. The 8000Y and early 9000Y range is actually where the 42 two digits are normally found. (commercial and police)

Also, the "Y" on a Banner is a different style "Y" than used on the byf's.

Just to confuse things, I have 511Y, which is a 41 two digit Banner without a sear safety, but marked with an E/L on the right receiver. This is the earliest 41 two digit that I am aware of. 512Y is recorded as being a 42 two digit commercial. Doesn't figure to me, but I visited with the owner and that is what he tells me. The next 42 two digit is 2460Y, then 3301Y, then 5164Y, all eagle L marked. Perhaps these are just recorded incorrectly, or perhaps they are actually 42 two digit police E/L Lugers, but they don't fit into the normal serial range. So... there was some funny stuff happening at this time with the Banners and perhaps your Luger is correct. I'd like to look at it some time. Good collecting!

Jim W · 10-01-2002, 12:20 PM

I am pleased to hear that there are other E/L two digit 42 banners recorded outside of the "accepted" range. I have hope that there would not be three improperly recorded. Can you give me more information on the differences in the "Y" suffix between the banners and the byf's?? I don't think I have a y suffix byf. I would be happy to have you take a look at this pistol and give me your opinion. I can email photos if you like. Thanks for your note! Jim

DRKriegslocker · 10-10-2002, 01:48 PM

Pardon my ignorance,as I am new to Lugers, but does the "two digit" term refer to the date only reflecting the last two numbers of the year? I have a 1941 banner mauser numbered 565Y. The year stamped is "1941" in smaller numbers.

TJ

MauserLugers · 10-10-2002, 02:50 PM

Hi,
The term "two digit" refers to the date on the top of the chamber. Instead of a 4 digit date, like 1941, the two digit Lugers have just a 41 or 42. Two digit Lugers in the Mauser Banner models are much harder to come by than the 4 digit examples. Good collecting!

stymie · 10-10-2002, 09:54 PM

I have a Mauser Banner "two digit" '42 Eagle L Police Luger w/sear safety #3110y. All the numbers match & the pistol is in mint condition. It came w/ a mint black leather holster w/lifting strap, tool & two FXO magazines. Is this an unusual serial # range & what would this rig be worth? Unfortunately, I don't have a digital camera.

09-11-2002, 04:53 PM	#1
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Mauser Banner Police Lugers Enough serious stuff, lets have some fun. Please tell me what you believe to be the rarest or hardest Mauser Banner police Lugers to find? Please give me your order of say the hardest 6 to find in the order you feel they are. Remember, just the Mauser Banner Police Lugers. After a few posts I'll post what I feel they are and you can agree or disagree with me. Good collecting!

09-11-2002, 06:26 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	MauserLugers, well I have no idea! I would imagine the 6 you have in mind, you probably have three of them and I bet it would be hard for me to get them [img]smile.gif[/img] Really, this will be a good thread, IF we can find those with the knowledge and with a couple of banners (or six). __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-11-2002, 09:13 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	No Bill, I HAVE no Idea! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] My knowledge on Lugers is what I presently have, although I can appreciate them much more than last year this time. The police ones interest me, I expect that Police Luger will have set ideas, but I would "expect" that certain years are hard to come by. So, start this off. #6 Hardest to find and why? [img]smile.gif[/img] I'll guess on the next ones, brought Imperial Lugers with me on the trip, so can't look up my "guess" __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-12-2002, 02:02 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,119 Thanked 5,286 Times in 1,728 Posts	Bill, Being an early Luger nut, this topic is way out of my league but I think it is extremely informative and a lot of fun. Thank you. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-12-2002, 09:17 AM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 971 Times in 277 Posts	well The 41 byf in the "o" block (a real one) of course. Still flinch about that one! Page 83 of TRL. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-11-2002, 06:38 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	This is a perfect example of what this forum is all about... I applaud you Bill for starting what will no doubt be an educational thread for us all... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-11-2002, 07:46 PM	#4
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Come on Ed, John, give us your opinion -- there is no wrong answer here.

09-11-2002, 10:20 PM	#6
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, To start this off, my 6 hardest police Banners would be: (1) 41 two digit Banner with police E/L -- Extremely hard Luger to find, let alone an Police marked variation. Approximately 7 known and found in the 600Y to 1200Y range. Still suggests about 500 procured, but I feel it is more likely about 25 or 50. (2) 42 two digit Banner with E/L -- Again, extremely hard to find. More commercial variations in this model than the 41 two digit, but the police variation are scarce. Approximately 5 known and found in the 8000Y to 9000Y range. Still suggests about 300 procured, but again, I feel it is more likely about 25 to 50. (3) 1940 Swiss commercial with E/L. These are extremely hard to find and might be the hardest of any. They were taken from the Swiss commercial contract and sent to the police. They have strawed parts, a sear safety, and E/L marked. Approximately 3 known. They are found in the 6000W to 7000W range. (4) This is a tricky one, as Jan Still has these labeled in his book as a Banner Army, but all the ones I have seen with a matching magazine were marked with a 1 or 2 to suggest to me they are actually police Lugers. This would be the 1939 "Banner Army" found in the low 600X serial range and only 3 known. They are drilled for a sear safety, but it was never added and they have two 655 proofs on the right receiver but no army test proof on the receiver or barrel. (5) This would be the 1938 E/K variation. Found in the low 7000V range. Approximately 275 made and only around 16 recorded. (6) Probably the 1940 E/C. Seldom seen. Approximately 20 known and found in the 1100X to 2500X serial range. Approximately 1100 procured. (7) Next would be the 1940 "Banner Army" -Approximately 20 known and in the 600X to 1500X serial range. Same characteristics as the 1939 and the 1940 E/C follows these. (8) There is suppose to be a 1939 E/F in the V block with only something like 5 known. Most of the 1939 E/F's were in the low "W" block. As with all of the hard to find variations, messed or counterfiet pieces are more commonly seen than the real examples. All the numbers posted here are rough estimates and I'm sure more are actually out there than have been recored. Serial ranges are also rough estimates. Thats my guess, what's yours?

09-12-2002, 03:50 PM	#9
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Ted, That is a good choice, although it is not a Banner. The byf 41 police variation is a hard variation to find. I've seen them in the O, P, and I have a complete rig in the T block. Seldom seen and a very good variation and a very good choice. Thanks Ted!

09-12-2002, 04:16 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 971 Times in 277 Posts	oops, you are right, I missed that part! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-12-2002, 04:51 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	I couldn't even begin to guess Bill... where is that new guy "policeluger" when you need him? Hey Howard are you listening? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-12-2002, 08:12 PM	#12
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Here I am, between hunts, yes there are things more important the Lugers. Sorry MauserLuger that we missed in Montana, by the time I got to Butte, and the taxidermy on friday, the show still had about 4 hours to go before it opened, and with a load of frozen buffalo meat to get home I did not stick around. I collect mostly in the Weimar era police, and of course the guns saw action into the WW11 era and even post WW11 military use (would love to go into the post 1945 use of the Luger in Germany sometime). I can not argue with MauserLuger much here, however, I would have to add the "small" date 1942 in the 5000y range near the top.

09-12-2002, 08:13 PM	#13
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi John, Come on and give some picks -- nothing ventured, nothing gained?? These are your picks and there are no wrong picks.

09-13-2002, 01:17 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	I got some help on this one as this pistol is for sale! Check out the for sale forum... Mauser Swiss Police (small banner) in the 'u' block with only a 4 inch barrel... My compadre Tom Armstrong says this is a rare one! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-20-2002, 12:10 PM	#15
Jim W User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have a very nice two digit 42 Banner, E/L all matching rig except the mags...serial number is (deep breath) 1418y. YIKES, its not in the accepted range! so here is the big question...looking at the serials of the two digit 41 and 42 Banners in Costanzo and Still, they appear to have been "set aside" from the four digit ( I assume regular production) runs...Why would this be?? By the serials, my pistol "should" be a 41 date, but then look at the spread in the 41 dates reported! Any ideas?? I have not yet done a serious comparison of stamps of Banner vs byf toggles and frames etc...but it sure looks like original matched to me.

09-25-2002, 11:39 PM	#16
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Jim, You have a real odd-ball here. Serial number 1418Y should actually be a 1941 Large Date Eagle L (four digit) according to the serial number. I have 1138Y which is a four digit large date 1941 E/L. The two digit 41's and 42's in the "Y" block are in a fairly tight group. The Eagle L police marked two digit 42's are usually only found in the low 8000Y range. The 8000Y and early 9000Y range is actually where the 42 two digits are normally found. (commercial and police) Also, the "Y" on a Banner is a different style "Y" than used on the byf's. Just to confuse things, I have 511Y, which is a 41 two digit Banner without a sear safety, but marked with an E/L on the right receiver. This is the earliest 41 two digit that I am aware of. 512Y is recorded as being a 42 two digit commercial. Doesn't figure to me, but I visited with the owner and that is what he tells me. The next 42 two digit is 2460Y, then 3301Y, then 5164Y, all eagle L marked. Perhaps these are just recorded incorrectly, or perhaps they are actually 42 two digit police E/L Lugers, but they don't fit into the normal serial range. So... there was some funny stuff happening at this time with the Banners and perhaps your Luger is correct. I'd like to look at it some time. Good collecting!

10-01-2002, 12:20 PM	#17
Jim W User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am pleased to hear that there are other E/L two digit 42 banners recorded outside of the "accepted" range. I have hope that there would not be three improperly recorded. Can you give me more information on the differences in the "Y" suffix between the banners and the byf's?? I don't think I have a y suffix byf. I would be happy to have you take a look at this pistol and give me your opinion. I can email photos if you like. Thanks for your note! Jim

10-10-2002, 01:48 PM	#18
DRKriegslocker New User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pardon my ignorance,as I am new to Lugers, but does the "two digit" term refer to the date only reflecting the last two numbers of the year? I have a 1941 banner mauser numbered 565Y. The year stamped is "1941" in smaller numbers. TJ

10-10-2002, 02:50 PM	#19
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, The term "two digit" refers to the date on the top of the chamber. Instead of a 4 digit date, like 1941, the two digit Lugers have just a 41 or 42. Two digit Lugers in the Mauser Banner models are much harder to come by than the 4 digit examples. Good collecting!

10-10-2002, 09:54 PM	#20
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have a Mauser Banner "two digit" '42 Eagle L Police Luger w/sear safety #3110y. All the numbers match & the pistol is in mint condition. It came w/ a mint black leather holster w/lifting strap, tool & two FXO magazines. Is this an unusual serial # range & what would this rig be worth? Unfortunately, I don't have a digital camera. __________________ "Irony can be pretty ironic!"